Trump is looking to scrap DACA. What is DACA?
Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) is an American immigration policy established by the Obama administration in June 2012. DACA allows certain illegal immigrants who entered the country as minors to receive a renewable two-year period of deferred action from deportation and eligibility for a work permit. So basically people who have entered the country illegally at no fault of their own due to the fact that they were children. Trump is ordering a mass deportation of people who have done nothing wrong and in the vast majority of cases have established themselves as productive and valued members of their community. All so he can be seen to be dismantling Obama's work and to appease his racist followers. Oh, and no-one has seen a penny of that million dollars he said he'd donate. He also said he'd donate to Hurricane Sandy but never did. |
All so he can be seen to be dismantling Obama's work and to appease his racist followers. i am struggling to see how it isn't anything but this.. |
It's all part of the plan to make America great again! |
It's all part of the plan to make America |
i am struggling to see how it isn't anything but this.. Has it got fpot calling a bunch of people he knows less than nothing about racist? If yes, that's what it was. |
here is one from the Atlantic just for you phooks. Rape culture isn't a thing.
A central tenet of advocates seeking greater accountability for sexual assault is that the complainant is virtually always the one telling the truth. As a 2014 White House report, “Rape and Sexual Assault: A Renewed Call to Action,” stated, “Only 2–10 percent of reported rapes are false.” Campus materials aimed at students make similar assertions. I wonder where the white house got a stat with no solid empirical basis from eh? maybe it was activist research. just maybe. |
Trump is looking to scrap DACA. What is DACA?Like (I have to assume) almost everyone else in the world I'd never heard of this DACA thing until the last week. I found the Slashdot comments quite interesting on this topic. There were many people saying DACA was Obama overstepping the bounds of the Executive in an un-Constitutional manner. But there are just as many people saying it was fine because Congress actually did empower the Executive to deal with this issue (also if only because it was apparently never successfully challenged while he was in office). #55141729 probably the best single post summary that looks at both sides. This referenced Tweetstorm is interesting too, from an Obama staffer listing why it is/was always likely to be wound back. Basically it's one of those things that I think comes down to various massively complicated subtleties in law so it's much much easier just to outsource the decision to pre-defined notions or your favourite talking heads. I don't need any more evidence to think that Trump is a douchenozzle but I confess I'd probably be in favour of winding back un-Constitutional legislation (but that's not what this is from the above referenced comment, it's just a policy?? f***) |
Secrecy and silence are the perpetrator’s first line of defense. If secrecy fails, the perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim. If he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure that no one listens. . . . After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same predictable apologies: it never happened; the victim lies; the victim exaggerates; the victim brought it on herself; and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on. If you're a right wing authoritarian reading this, you'll be offended for whatever reason, perhaps because the feminists are coming to get you (and your church). Everyone else will realise that thousands of survivors are failed by the system, and they need support and frameworks to help them come forward, male and female. |
well DACA does sound much more PC than wetback i suppose
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If you're a right wing authoritarian reading this, you'll be offended for whatever reason, perhaps because the feminists are coming to get you (and your church). Everyone else will realise that thousands of survivors are failed by the system, and they need support and frameworks to help them come forward, male and female. If you're a nominally functional adult you'll be able to see that even if what she say is true it doesn't justify wholesale repeal of fundamental rights. You'll also notice she refers to sexual harassment which as bad as it *can* be is often not bad at all. You'll notice victims of being looked at get referred as "survivors" just the same as victims of gang rapes.
Title IX is an executive order, with *undefined*, not vaguely defined, offenses justified on the emotive grounds that we have failed survivors, and if due process rights have to be suspended well we need to address this easily recognizable societal problem. Courts are recognizing this phooks. All those rawcist judges are awarding against title IX investigations in favour of the "perpetrator". I found an LWA without even looking for one. How did old mate f*** that up. Maybe he wasn't really trying. I think he may want "right wing" to walk hand in hand with "authoritarian". Like really badly. See this is why its easier just to skip to calling you a f*****g moron phooks. You demonstrated from the outset you had no interest in an actual discussion. You want to call people who disagree with you right wing authoritarians or ideologues and that's fine. comments like this See, this middle road is such a dangerous ideology in itself, not because it assumes that experts should be making all the practical decisions, but because it gives into the false equivalency of balance that legitimises the views of those like PP. Democracy itself exists for a reason, and you should get off the fence. would be quicker if you just wrote View which disagree with my own are a false equivalency. You wanted to be called a moron, and I'm happy to do it. I see no reason to change the arrangement |
Basically it's one of those things that I think comes down to various massively complicated subtleties in law so it's much much easier just to outsource the decision to pre-defined notions or your favourite talking heads. I don't need any more evidence to think that Trump is a douchenozzle but I confess I'd probably be in favour of winding back un-Constitutional legislation (but that's not what this is from the above referenced comment, it's just a policy?? f***) fair enough not sure other republican presidents would do it though, without the seeming vendetta trump has to destroy everything obama did |
Pp I will be blunt. You have established in this thread you care deeply about due process for Nazis, white supremacists, and men charged with rape.
You have championed for those who are in the majority, for those with historical and current privileges, and for traditional family values. You have trivialised sexual offences, and made fun of survivors of assault and abuse. At all instances you have questioned credibility on sources and evidence only when it is against your own worldview. I don't expect you to care about why this is an issue because like most RWAs, all you see is threat to the current order, and therefore a threat to you. You are so numb to what you're saying. I encourage you to see the world for what it is, and for what it can be. There is beauty in diversity, and the world is not a dangerous place. There is no a need for a big ego, you are not under threat. |
Perhaps I can encourage you to check your own biases with a simple question.
"You suck d****!" is an insult. Why is that? |
fair enoughdoing it right now while Texas is underwater and people are fleeing Florida for fear of the biggest hurricane ever seems like misplaced priorities Spoke to a colleague in Florida yesterday; they are battening down the hatches with supplies but are not leaving (Miami) because they don't want to get stuck on the roads in a hurricane with no gas. It is still days away (I think?) but it sounds like people are pretty on edge. Hopefully the f*****g thing dies in the next few days but it sounds like there is still plenty of heat in the ocean for it to power off. |
Pp I will be blunt. You have established in this thread you care deeply about due process for Nazis, white supremacists, and men charged with rape. Phooks darling let me explain to you very clearly and very patiently why this post is incoherent drivel. I have pointed out that those groups have rights. Those rights are enshrined explicitly in the US constitution, in the ICCPR and to varying degrees implicitly in the Australian constitution. I have also pointed out that if you are going to brawl in the streets with someone exercising their inalienable rights, in a civilised democracy, you are the problem. Even, and perhaps especially, when those views are taboo or morally reprehensible. The nature of their “historical and current privilege” is not and has never been relevant to the content of their rights. Whether you like it or not Nazis and white supremacists represent an immeasurably small minority in the US and Australia. So the idea that I have stood up for a racist majority trampling the rights of minorities is absurd, factually wrong and a clumsy insult. I have at no point trivialised sexual crimes much less made fun of survivors and I have discussed zero rapists. I have mocked, quite correctly, the ridiculous concept that we in Australia live in rape culture. I have mocked you for trying to suggest that some sexual *harassment* is evidence of a *rape* culture. I have attacked the idea that right wing authoritarianism is something that should be taken seriously, because the survey you linked to was a bald faced political document. And to demonstrate my point, you can pore over my posts. You will not find a value judgement in relation to “traditional family values”. Your ability to project notwithstanding. I have expressed no opinion at all in relation to them. I have stated you can disagree with that phrase with out expressing a value judgement which you have rather hysterically characterised as “championing” traditional family values. As for attacking things that don't support my "world view", what the f*** do you propose you are doing? I haven't seen you attempt to point out the glaring faults in the s*** you post champ. for example We are still in an era of battles over who will be granted the right to speak and the right to be believed The right to be believed isn't a thing, and most certainly isn't a thing in a criminal matter, the literal point of a criminal trial is to determine who should be believed. The one I particularly love is that we don't live in a dangerous world but we also live in a rape culture. *amazing*. and for the reading impaired. That sentence expresses no judgement at all on whether we in fact live in a dangerous world. So spare me the vulgar psycho analysis. It would be funny if you weren't qualified. |
+1
PP sometimes gets lost in the internet dweeby agrumenty weeds but good post IMO. Genuinely interested in good faith responses. |
What to do about the anti SSM and ACL ads?
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Yet another enlightened post from the RWA. The nature of their "historical and current privilege" is not and has never been relevant to the content of their rights. Wrong. History and politics play an important role in developing or recognizing rights, and the discussion about which behaviours are included as "rights" is an ongoing political topic of importance. The concept of rights varies with political orientation. "championing" traditional family values. family values plural noun values especially of a traditional or conservative kind which are held to promote the sound functioning of the family and to strengthen the fabric of society going to brawl in the streets with someone exercising their inalienable rights, in a civilised democracy, you are the problem. Even, and perhaps especially, when those views are taboo or morally reprehensible. A great insight into where you, and the rest of your camp, get your moral compass from - authority. Laws are valid only insofar as they are grounded in justice, and a commitment to justice carries with it an obligation to disobey unjust laws. Legal rights can be seen as unnecessary, as social contracts are not essential for deontic moral action. For more information; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27 I haven't seen you attempt to point out the glaring faults in the s*** you post champ. for example I'm yet to see someone point out a valid criticism. I love being wrong, and recognise I am biased in my own ways, if anyone can see valid flaws in logic (meme posting notwithstanding) I invite them to point it out. |
For instace if I see Hitler 2.0 walking the streets, you bet your ass imma punch him the f*** out. PP be the guy standing behind the riot police, clapping on the cops putting me in jail as an enemy of the state for punching a respected politician
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You're wasting your time Phooks. He'll exhaust you with wall of texts and then think he's destroying you. Ego the size of a house.
The holy Constitution, a document that supported slavery until amendment. How long until the alt-right amends it to remove the rights of minorities? PP is only a protector of justice & freedom for as much as it suits his world view. If the democratic process brought in Slavery again, no doubt he'd champion it for how wonderful democracy is for allowing such opposing views to enter law. |
For instace if I see Hitler 2.0 walking the streets, you bet your ass imma punch him the f*** out. PP be the guy standing behind the riot police, clapping on the cops putting me in jail as an enemy of the state for punching a respected politician One of the fundamental principles underpinning modern society is that the state has a monopoly on violence other than self defence. You might think you're doing a "good" when you punch hitler 2.0 and in a world where 100% of the population agrees you're punching hitler 2.0 maybe you are. What if only 90% of the population agrees with you? 60%? 30%? Internet toughguy posturing aside surely you're intelligent enough to see how stupid that sort of idea is? |
PP your interpretation of rape culture is that rape is endorsed explicitly by a society. Wrong. Just so you know phooks, calling me an RWA isn't getting under my skin. It's just making you look stupid. Rape culture phooks, is the claim that rape is pervasive in society and implicitly or explicitly endorsed in said society. So if anything I was being generous in my interpretation. Nevertheless that is a empirically false claim, and you have not posted a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. You've posted emotive crap with zero reference to data, and the data you have posted does not on any reasonable interpretation support your claim. If RWA is not a pathetic exercise in confirmation bias, why are you still talking about traditional family values phooks. I have still literally said nothing about family values traditional or otherwise. You are so far up your own ass you're incapable of seeing that apparently. Wrong. History and politics play an important role in developing or recognizing rights, and the discussion about which behaviours are included as "rights" is an ongoing political topic of importance. The concept of rights varies with political orientation. When you can point to a rights document which states these rights are contingent on historical and current privilege I'll take you seriously. You're going to be looking for a while though phooks because they don't exist. The point of *universal* human rights is that all humans get them you utter utter moron. I love how you link to someone who says universalism is the highest form of moral development then argue with a straight face that human rights should be applied with consideration of "privilege" in mind. Genius. Noted RWAs the ACLU agree with my interpretation on the right to free speech. A great insight into where you, and the rest of your camp, get your moral compass from - authority. Oh look you at go phooks. How did you pull authority out of those two sentences? it's like magic. I guess we're back to you just making up your own arguments. Did you get up on Nadal? If you see hitler 2.0 you're going to do nothing of the sort, I doubt you've even said boo to an elected official. but read in conjunction with There is no a need for a big ego, you are not under threat. Champagne comedy. He'll exhaust you with wall of texts and then think he's destroying you. You self-destruct Vash, and are too stupid to know it. |
Nothing shows insecurity more than a big ego and calling everyone stupid.
It's okay PP. You're loved, everything will be OK. |
Oh Vash. the s*** that comes out of you when poked really does make it all worthwhile.
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Taking it upon yourself to punch Hitler 2.0 if you see him walking the streets is basically vigilante or mob justice, no? Where's the end of that thought process? We decree certain ideologies punishable by death and cull all the racists, xenophobes, bigots, conservatives, people that disagree with you?
Why's it so difficult to see that the rule of law that underpins our civilisation not only protects you but also people that have differing views to you? Antifa is no better than the white supremacists given the violent and authoritarian tendencies they have, imo. Not to mention rolling out to get into street fights with neonazis is hardly the way to stop them, violence begets violence. The illogicality and hypocrisy of the far left is pretty astonishing tbh. The political spectrum really is a horse shoe with the far left and the far right actually being pretty close to each other. I thought this was cool: The hilarious way a German town turned neo-Nazis against Nazism |
Just so you know phooks, calling me an RWA isn't getting under my skin. You do however keep arguing against it's very existence, and trying to fight for the same phenomenon in left wingers, which is the -exact- response you would expect from an RWA. Hence the funny. The whole 'under threat' thing is playing to the insecurities of the right - the world is a dangerous place specifically because feminists, gays, refugees, atheists and ethnic minorities (basically any minority or outgroup, not any specific one) are coming to steal your jobs/rights/church/etc, and that is evil that needs to be combated with 'necessary evils' like a strong military, nationalism, capital punishment, capitalism, religion and conservative economics. Hence the whole 'you're under threat, you need a strong leader' stuff the liberals pull all the time. Where's the end of that thought process? At the hitler 2.0 part? whu-oh, it's the slippery slope train, next stop, the war on drugs! the far left and the far right actually being pretty close to each other. I feel like we're going in circles here. Vash had a nice diagram for you up a few posts violence begets violence. Which is exactly why forcing the boats to turn back, at the likely cost of the lives of valid refugees and asylum seekers, was -such- a great idea. (Protip; regressive refugee policies weren't the best long term solution) policies of deterrence also come at a very high economic cost to Australia and have a significant negative impact on Australiaâs strategic interests internationally.https://www.unicef.org.au/blog/news-and-insights/s |
Wouldn't it be just as easy to say that letting the nazis have their say and hoping it all peters out into nothing may be a critical mistake that has historic precedent? I am not talking about targeting them with violence, but they must be protested. Maybe it's not possible for these large groups to clash peacefully. I know so far only one of the groups has committed a terrorist act.
The risk isn't the USA becoming a 1930s/40s style nazi state with death camps. The risk is the possibility of the nazis gaining any sort of political influence at all. In a healthy democracy with competent leadership and a well educated public willing to critically think their way through problems I agree the nazi threat would be zero. At the moment we have a rogue president who has vocally supported the nazis and implemented policies that support their agenda (giant walls, mass deportations etc). We also have an American public either dumb or disenfranchised enough to vote him in. The police force in the USA is absolutely f***ed and if anyone is hoping they'll be the ones to save them they're going to be disappointed. |
You do however keep arguing against it's very existence, and trying to fight for the same phenomenon in left wingers, which is the -exact- response you would expect from an RWA. Hence the funny. Sounds a little like that can't be falsified there phooks. Hence funny. Just you get out there and punch those imaginary nazis Ted Kaczynski. Just note that when people shoot up mosques you can't complain. You said it was ok to be violent to your political opponents. The idea you call anyone "authoritarian" is truly Orwellian. HEY YOU KNOW WHO WAS TALKING ABOUT REFUGEES AND STRONG LEADERS. NOONE. TAKE A DAY OFF YOU WEIRDO. I know so far only one of the groups has committed a terrorist act. Remember when that bernie supporter shot members of congress. Me too. At the moment we have a rogue president who has vocally supported the nazis Provide a single quote where this has happened. Just one. |
One of the fundamental principles underpinning modern society is that the state has a monopoly on violence other than self defence.In normal circumstances I 100% agree wtih you. I cannot think of a situation in which I would tolerate citizens using violence against a person or group, without their safety being at stake. But it's important to remember that this rationale is based on one thing: the state going out of its way to defend its citizens. If the state is failing in that duty (e.g., there are hordes of brownshirts wandering the streets beating up people based on their genetic makeup) and the safety, liberty, health and lives of others are compromised, then arguably civil disobedience (i.e., punching Nazis) could be a fairly logical next step. This would be, more or less, the point of a major societal breakdown and I think it's fairly obvious (except the weeny tiny number of anti-fascist punchers, a number smaller than even that of the Nazis) that we're not near that point - but there are very worrying signs, e.g., the total, spectacular failure of the President of the United States to simply and immediately condemn actual, literal Nazis that exist in his country and are stirring, as a direct result of his other total, spectacular failures (in policy but also as a human being). So while I think violence is not the right answer to the "Nazi threat" today, I can envisage a future where it is without much difficulty. Given that it is basically totally legal (in the US at least) for Nazis to organise and wander around public with more or less zero repercussions, it should not be forgotten that all the anti-fascist punchers can and almost certainly will be locked up (even a half-assed effort by the authorities should do this), while the number of Nazis can grow because there are (for now) basically zero mechanisms to forcibly check the spread of their ideology. It is not difficult to envisage a world where, for a long period of time, mobs of Nazis wander the streets calling for the extermination of brown people, with things eventually going out of control, resulting in them beating them up or (say) running them over in their cars, all while the machinery of government flails around uselessly trying to decide what to do. Like a Kristallnacht 2.0 situation where a bunch of Nazis that think they're clever try to perform non-violent action by blockading or damaging businesses owned by people of whatever ethnicities they're sad about. So I'm saying, at some point I would find it hard to be critical of those using violence to stop Nazis from growing their evil movement and hurting more and more people. "First they came for the Nazis" just doesn't have that same ring to it, you know? General comments: Without having spoken to any Nazi punchers, I think the argument for punching Nazis is that it IS self defence, and the defence of others, in the face of a disgusting ideology that literally wants people dead based on nothing more than some random genetic factors. It's easy to think Nazis are just further along on some linear scale of badness, like a little bit above general purpose murderers and people that torture animals or something. (For what it's worth I honestly find the threats of Islamic terrorists and North Korea completely banal by comparison.) But that is not the case; it is more like some exponential curve of badness. When thinking about people that want to punch Nazis, I think it's important (or at least, interesting) to remember that there are people alive today that were in Nazi death camps, who faced down literal Nazi soldiers on battlefields, who have family members that are no longer alive today because of Nazis. These aren't random abstract expressions of rage at a couple of skinhead rednecks; they're deeply entrenched feelings of terror from people who were at risk of genocide or extermination and, rightfully, have never forgotten about it. Few things make me sympathetic about the right to bear arms but avoiding genocide due to the apathy of governments is one of them. While I think punching Nazis is not the right response right now, I have to wonder what would have happened in 1930s if people had spent a bit more time punching Nazis, instead of being strong-armed by brownshirts while the state looked on futilely (although admittedly probably not without a lot of frustration) doing nothing. The good news though is that - in my ever-humble opinion - I think the circumstances are significantly, like orders-of-magnitude, different. I do not believe there are enough Nazis to develop critical mass. I do not think anti-fascists punching Nazis will increase (or decrease) their numbers. I do not think American society will tolerate the cancer of Nazis, and believe they will be suppressed and rejected by the normal machinations of society, accelerated through non-violent methodologies (e.g., Sleeping Giants and public humiliation), although sadly not without more deaths as some of the more fringe crazy elements go out of control. You might think you're doing a "good" when you punch hitler 2.0 and in a world where 100% of the population agrees you're punching hitler 2.0 maybe you are. What if only 90% of the population agrees with you? 60%? 30%?hehe, it sounds like we are now just discussing the vulnerabilities of democracy here :D What IF x% of people do agree punching Nazis is OK, and we pass a law that allows it!?! Would that be a terrible law? (I suspect you think this already and that is not what you are saying but not clear to me what your point is here. This is what I mean by a vulnerability of democracy - just because a majority of people think we should be allowed to have slaves, or people from Tasmania should only get paid 40%, or whatever, doesn't mean the laws of the country should reflect that. Even if 100% of the population does agree that punching the Nazi was a good idea, there is a strong argument that it still should be illegal and the Nazi puncher should be dealt with accordingly. (I think the anti-fascist punchers should be tried for assault, but several of them already have been so the system seems to be working reasonably well, if a bit slow and anemic). In the (unlikely) event we get to the point where Nazi groups are more organised and become an actual threat I would expect, and demand, the state take steps to limit it, regardless of the percentage of citizens that think it's a good idea. Sadly, due to the totally inconvenient nature of the space-time continuum, it is hard to A/B test reality, so we'll never know what the best course of action is, or would have been, or was last century the first time these Nazi f**** reared their stupid peanut heads. I would like to believe that our society has evolved to be strong enough to deal with such threats organically, and this brief spurt of activity will soon wither and die as pathetically and ignominiously as it deserves, as they all go back into their basements to lick their wounds with the realisation that their beliefs simply have no place in this era of humanity. |
SIEGEL: What clearly distinguishes a Robert E. Lee statue from a George Washington statue or a Thomas Jefferson statue since all those men owned slaves? |
Trogs centrist paradise be like:
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While I think punching Nazis is not the right response right now, I have to wonder what would have happened in 1930s if people had spent a bit more time punching Nazis, instead of being strong-armed by brownshirts while the state looked on futilely (although admittedly probably not without a lot of frustration) doing nothing. Trog this literally happened, a bunch of red shirts would turn up an punch on. It resulted in an expanded police state, which helped the nazis, you can go and read about it. Nazis would goad people into fighting and then use this to justify the expansion of police powers to disperse crowds. When thinking about people that want to punch Nazis, I think it's important (or at least, interesting) to remember that there are people alive today that were in Nazi death camps, who faced down literal Nazi soldiers on battlefields, who have family members that are no longer alive today because of Nazis. As for this. there are people who did that its true. They are not *repeat* not the people advocating for punching nazis. You can find jews who advocate for the rights of nazis to peacefully organise and march. The giant bright burning golden line is violence. You have categorically not acted in self defence if you respond with violence to speech period. And this idea that you can, is a profoundly dangerous one. The people talking about punching nazis are a d***less parade of internet tough guys, who'd s*** their pants in an actual physical fight. There is no danger *at all* of Nazis holding sway in the US now or in the future. |
You have categorically not acted in self defence if you respond with violence to speech period. Unless, of course, that speech is to do with terrorism. Or national security threats. Or |
In case you don't understand my point again PP, it's that you are only against violence to people who are messing with the 'current order', whereas state sanctioned violence is A-OK.
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I like it how people think that hate groups have a right to "peacefully" protest because having a policy of violence and oppression against minorities is apparently free speech.
Don't forget the KKK is a terrorist group, the free speech conversation would go out the window if it were a group of muslims who were protesting while waving an ISIS flag. If defending the supposed rights of nazis to protest is important to you then maybe you should re-evaluate your priorities. By the way, the right to free speech does not include hate speech, having to explain that to grown ass adults is pretty depressing. |
In case you don't understand my point again PP No I understand you point quite clearly. It's just wrong. So in that Wikipedia did it touch on how neo-nazis shape policy (because they don't in anyway at all) or did it talk about how they exist. Because I'm talking about one and not the other. But you're too dumb to figure that our apparently. There will never be a time when people don't hold morally reprehensible views. Nor is it particularly desirable to create a society where it is illegal to express those views. Just go get your punch on Phooks. When a body guard smashes your face in the pavement, and you changed *nothing at all* IE nazis didn't have influence before and won't after, it will be all the more funny. |
By the way, the right to free speech does not include hate speech, having to explain that to grown ass adults is pretty depressing. Hate Speech in America is protected by the 1st Amendment. Its depressing that you want to shut other people up. People like you are far more dangerous than Nazis. Then there are people like Trog who believe Free Speech is founded on Righteousness and everyone should be really nice to each other. "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences." Brendon O'Neil referred to this a couple of nights ago on Facebook. Everyone who says this is really saying, "You can say what you like, but you might suffer for it". Which is another way of saying, "You can say what you like, but I wouldn't if I were you". Which is another way of saying, "Best not sayt, eh". |
how neo-nazis shape policy (because they don't in anyway at all) or did it talk about how they exist. Because I'm talking about one and not the other. So.. wh.. I don't.. ...... I'll refer you to Trogs post for that one. "First they came for the Nazis" just doesn't have that same ring to it, you know? This_thread.jpeg |
Just remember Phooks when dealing with newscorp readership, Nazis marching in the street, fine. |
"First they came for the Nazis" just doesn't have that same ring to it, you know? So then there should be no need to be wandering the streets looking for hitler 2.0 to punch on with should there? But go save the world from the nazis phooks. We can all have a laugh about how they've had more influence over your face than political thought for the last 50 years. |
People should be free to display how much of a douche bag they are.
By forcing them to not express themselves by enacting laws preventing that, they will find covert methods to release that expression. What would you rather, a overt Nazi that is easily identifiable as the douchebag they are and thus can avoid them and their toxic behaviour. Or forcing them to be covert in their nature, so you can't easily identify them and then be subjugated to their toxic s*** randomly when it comes out. Think about the emotionally abusive relationship. The abusers are often indistinguishable from healthy people, people form relationships with them and slowly the abuser (most often not intentionally, the are just unhealthy, broken people) whittles away their self-esteem and over-time significant damage is done. Consider if that person was overtly abusive, the relationship would likely not be formed and that person happily avoids years of emotional torment. Forcing people to obfuscate their beliefs and abusing ways is essentially creating an environment for emotionally abusive people to thrive, via forcing them into covert styles of abuse. So does censoring them still seem like such a great idea? |
Trogs centrist paradise be like:I actually wrote a metaphor about slavery in my post but removed it at the last minute because I think it would just be a bit of a strawman that would confuse people. You seem to have been confused anyway :( edit: wait is it centrist to believe in the laws of the land? When I have some time I'm going to start working on a 3D version of the left/right/centre spectrum", so people who don't express extremist left or right positions don't have to uselessly be labelled centrist |
Weird how the American Nazi Party didn't get banned after WW2, especially after this went into law. |
Then there are people like Trog who believe Free Speech is founded on Righteousness and everyone should be really nice to each other.everyone /should/ be really nice to other. What the absolute worst segment of the free speechers believe is that their right to free speech means that they should, nay, must, wander around using it to be an obnoxious f*** to everyone all the time. Like they're being the living embodiment of the first amendment by exercising that right non-stop (when in fact they're just anti-social d***wads). That is not why free speech laws exist. People that hide behind free speech laws purely to run around and be f***wits screaming 'free speech free speech' whenever anyone tells them to shut up aren't excellent demonstrations of what a great idea free speech is. It's a necessary weakness of the law - the law entitles them to do it. But it's not a BENEFIT of free speech. It's the COST of free speech. I am prepared to tolerate that cost because I think free speech is important. But I /do/ think people generally should be nice to each other and shouldn't generally take advantage of free speech laws simply because it allows them to be toxic. This does not seem to be a very controversial position to me. Brendon O'Neil referred to this a couple of nights ago on Facebook.That post (once you strip it of its quite excellent logical fallacies; it is a masterpiece of Trumpish that makes it very hard to lose - he's basically listed a series of responses that start with other people exercising their own right to free speech then slippery slope all the way down to being gunned down in the street - a truly impressive piece of dogwhistle writing!!) basically says "I should have free speech and everyone else's other freedoms should be curtailed to ensure I have that right". I'll cherry pick the more practical parts of his post: - Why do you think other citizens should not be able to exercise their free rights of association & not hang out with people whose speech they disagree with? - Why do you think should other citizens be silenced and not allowed to communicate their views to people they disagree with (this is "harassment" apparently)? - Why do you think businesses should have to keep people employed who spout off Nazi slogans? (this is a tricky one and I am not sure about this one, but if you are as freedom-loving as you have often claimed to be, I would imagine you think businesses should be able to do whatever they want) - Why do you think free citizens should not have the right to ridicule people that try to hide behind 'free speech' laws to spout off ridiculous falsehoods? (presumably also "harassment") - Why do you think Twitter should not be free to block the speech of whoever they want? Finally, I would say the most interesting & ardent free speech supporter I know is of course Popehat & it is a tenet of his that free speech should have consequences. (Most of my thinking about free speech has been done from reading everything on the Popehat blog so I admit to being heavily biased in my thinking based on his conclusions.) |
By the way, the right to free speech does not include hate speech, having to explain that to grown ass adults is pretty depressing.It has been confusing because the conversation has partially been about general free speech, US-specific free speech, and Australian free speech. It expressly does in the USA - that is what 'freedom' means. It is not 'freedom, but', but general freedom (outside of an extremely limited number of specific cases). Australia does /not/ have free speech in the same way as America though - and we do have some hate speech laws. |
Well threats of violence and intimidation are illegal in both countries as far as I know and I know some people who like to advocate for terrorist organizations like the KKK like to claim that hate speech is somehow different to a threat but that I doubt the people who are the target of that hate speech feel the same way.
Imagine being Jewish and seeing people walk down the street wearing the symbol of an organization that literally tried to kill your entire race or being black and seeing people openly advocate for the KKK, an organization that has killed thousands of people for no other reason than the colour of their skin. How are those people supposed to feel anything other than intimidated? Seriously though, is this thread just about American politics? Right now we have a Liberal PM trying to tell a private company how to run it's business in AGL and a deputy PM that may not even be constitutionally elected but all anyone here wants to talk about is the US. |
Well threats of violence and intimidation are illegal in both countries as far as I knowNot really in the US; it has to be a clear threat of inciting immediate violence or something (I can't remember offhand but the limitations are narrow). How are those people supposed to feel anything other than intimidated?Yes, well, that is the price of freedom - it includes the freedom to be f***wits (hence my comments above that choosing to be a f***wit is something that people should strive not to do). Seriously though, is this thread just about American politics? Right now we have a Liberal PM trying to tell a private company how to run it's business in AGL and a deputy PM that may not even be constitutionally elected but all anyone here wants to talk about is the US.Fair point but we're not really talking about the US; just the concept of free speech in general. If you want to change the topic, just change the topic, don't keep talking about the old topic :D Let's laugh at the Liberals, that's always fun |
Let's laugh at the Liberals, that's always fun Yes, lets. http://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/8893144-16x9-large.png?v=2 |
Hate Speech in America is protected by the 1st Amendment. It's important to remember that it is protected to the point that it becomes a suggestion. Speech is protected in the US if it is an idea or a point of view, but the moment it becomes a call-to-arms, a suggestion that people act in an illegal way that may cause harm to other, it ceases to be protected. For example, "I think we should lynch group X" would protected. "I am going to lynch group X" being the statement of intent of an illegal act or "I advise people to lynch group X" being an instruction to perform an illegal act is not protected. |
This country is well on it's way to the s****** (if it isn't there already)
Attempts at forcing the ABC to be more right-wing, by trying to make it more 'fair and balanced' (it already is) and reduction in media ownership laws will ensure a stronger narrative of right leaning policy, something that is bad for everyone, besides the wealthy i suppose. |
those wily corporations. they'll getcha, they'll getcha everytime.
The crab people are coming vash. Better get ready to punch. You know to keep things 'fair and balanced' |
Are you talking about the corporations that pay f*** all tax and get a 30 mil handout?
Sounds pretty fair and balanced to me. |
To be honest I reckon this citizenship thing is really dumb and they should just change the law. Interesting to see the contrast between how the Greens senators handled it compared to everyone else. It shows who has at least some moral integrity.
Bernardi recently criticised a fundraiser designed to raise funds for African schoolgirls for some dumb transphobic reason. They've now raised $275,000 compared to their original goal of just $900. You can donate to it here. |
Interesting to see the contrast between how the Greens senators handled it compared to everyone else. It shows who has at least some moral integrity.Yep. It must be toasting their bagels that they gave them all this s*** and they demonstrated their class. Now the tables have turned their hypocrisy is astounding. I don't mind them being required to renounce their citizenship to other nations but agree that if they can make a reasonable case that they didn't know about it, they should just be able to renounce it and continue. Imagine that if you're an immigrant to the country though and you have to prove your own citizenship situation - you have to jump through ridiculous hoops so the government can make sure you are who you say you are, and that your status is clear. But somehow to get high office in the government, they don't have similar checks?! |
There are different situations that all add to the same problem.
Its another huge waste of Taxpayers money, YOU are paying for this show. like the Gay survey = $114 million the fence around Parliament = $118 million lucky that Budget Emergency is over. |
those wily corporations. they'll getcha, they'll getcha everytime. |
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers. For a hundred years, there's been a conspiracy of plutocrats against ordinary people. Number one: In 1945 corporations paid 50 percent of federal taxes. Now they pay about 5 percent. Number two: In 1900 90 percent of Americans were self-employed; now it's about two percent. It's called consolidation. Strengthen governments and corporations, weaken individuals. With taxes, this can be done imperceptibly over time.The entire executive branch is hand-picked. Nineteen of the last twenty-three U.S. presidents have been members of the Trilateral Commission. The Trilateral Commission is financed by the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds.
Ever wonder why big car companies pay two percent tax while the guys on the assembly line pay forty? Corporations are so big you don't even know who you're working for. That's terror. Terror built into the system. edit: on a more serious note, Trump just had a rally where he encouraged a group of racist people to boo a black man engaging in peaceful protest. Trump holds white supremacist rallies now. |
The War on Christians
A Coalition for Marriage meeting in Melbourne was last night stormed by gay-marriage protesters yelling "crucify the Christians" and waving a banner declaring: "Burn churches, not queers". Meanwhile, a Mormon church is vandalised with vote-yes grafitti. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKcZ0C7U8AIlYmL.jpg Mormon Church defaced https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKaOxHpV4AAGnJY.jpg http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4912540/Coalition-Marriage-s-Melbourne-launch-lesbian-kiss.html Its turning into a pogrom against Christians STRAIGHT LIVES MATTER |
imagine the outrage if it said "burn mosques not queers". It's almost as if the very idea of burning Christian Churches is absurd in comparison. Maybe that's because they aren't some sort of 'under attack minority'. |
yes burning mosques in Australia is a totally credible threat that wouldn't receive unequivocal and universal condemnation in 'comparison' to burning churches being unlikely.
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^ Yes, save the gay, brown, muslim whales, and f*** everyone else. You're right, we should be focusing on the pride/rights of white, rich Christian men, particularly the white supremacist ones who get charged with rape - their suffering is unparalleled. |
You know, times are tough. I had to sell my second yacht to fund the Australian Christian Lobby this month.
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"Political Correctness is ruining this f*****g country"
"I can't believe these s***-stackers keep trying to harass us, can you believe they texted me??!?! I'm so offended." |
I can't believe it's not an argument.
So you know how a religion is a set of moral expectations typically backed by "laws of nature" expressed through a series of agreed meta-physical claims. That's not a race. also is that the same Germany that has no minimum wage? That one who's ruling party is the christian democratic union. Or some other germany? |
PP as a white supremacist this honestly this may -really- surprise you, but there isn't really a hard-line biological definition of what a race/ethnicity actually is. Shocker.
So much so that, the only protections people have against discrimination for their religion is, you guessed it, the Racial Discrimination Act. Because religion can be seen as an 'ethnic origin' Source: https://www.humanrights.gov.au/quick-guide/12091 |
Oh so when you say
FYI thanks to the lobbying power of the Australian Christian Lobby I should read that as a racial comment. Ok hitler. PS this PP as a white supremacist this honestly Doesn't get under my skin. it just proves how utterly pathetic you are. |
Only whitey can be racist Kek. See you think that's witty, but perhaps you should literally learn the definition of racism and take that into the context of your statement. The ideology underlying racist practices often includes the idea that humans can be subdivided into distinct groups that are different due to their social behavior and their innate capacities as well as the idea that they can be ranked as inferior or superior. When you talk to minorities (you know, you can do that, really.) they usually label their antagonistic beliefs on majorities with historic privileges (i.e. white people) as 'prejudice', because they see racism as something that is systemic But who cares about how minorities see the world, rly |
But who cares about how minorities see the world, rly Are Muslims a minority? Seems like the second largest religion in the world which sits on trillions of barrels of oil can't really claim that status seriously. Seems like it is really really really useful to claim that status. because then you can conflate racism with blasphemy. Which is exactly what happens. See every post you've made today in this thread phooks. |
what are your thoughts on humanism? If you are asking me, I'm pretty big on it. |
Are Muslims a minority? Seems like the second largest religion in the world which sits on trillions of barrels of oil can't really claim that status Muslims in Australia don't own oil, nor do muslims across the globe. Arab states own oil. Muslims in australia are a minority, maybe like a few percentage points? what are your thoughts on humanism? I'm really only familiar with it as an approach to psychology in which case it's quite old and largely uses clinical-based frameworks. Humanistic psychology came just after Freud and Skinner, and I have my concerns on its basic assumptions. For myself I've been more a fan of a form of stoicism lately, but have needed to tap into humanistic perspectives when dealing with rare situations, 'bad people do good things, good do bad' and what have you. At a quick glance I'd broadly say humanism today is probably expressed best in the NFP sector and is a desperately needed for the bottom 20%-30% of the global population, but human development and public/private sector progress in general will probably move the rest of the world where it needs to go. Still, that doesn't mean the most disadvantaged of us needs to be left behind. |
Muslims in Australia don't own oil, nor do muslims across the globe. Arab states own oil. Muslims in australia are a minority, maybe like a few percentage points? Ok so if we are talking just about Australian Muslims (many of whom are sunni which completely dominates the oil industry FYI), why is it in virtue of said percentage points, do their religious convictions become racist to criticise? for example, why would you equivocate between burning a mosque and burning a church? Both seems morally wrong, and morally wrong to joke about in a political setting. Is it or is it not racist to say "burn churches not gays"? Because if it is racist to say "burn mosques not gays" I don't see an important difference. Let me give you a leg up here I don't give a f*** about percentages. And I doubt you seriously do as well. For example the westboro baptist church *might* have 100 members, but every one has heard of them. A comfortable majority of Muslims would hold similar views about homosexuality. I haven't seen you discuss that once. Why? |
morally wrong to joke about in a political setting. Not really. A joke is a joke. Advocating for violence is not a joke. Me saying 'us PC lefties are gonna heabutt yall!" is very clearly a joke, specifically funny because the core of the movement is based on love and it plays on the insecurities of the rhetoric of the right - vote no because some guy headbutted some other guy! Actually headbutting a politician is a very stupid and violent thing to do, and definitely not a joke. Which is why I don't joke about headbutting Literally Hitler 2.0, because that would be an extreme reaction against a clearly extreme and immoral threat to humanity. Is it or is it not racist to say "burn churches not gays"? Depends on the context. The statement itself implies that gays are, in fact, the ones who are being burnt. By the churches. Which they have been through most of history. And the statement was made by lesbians who were smiling and kissing each other in front of Christians - something Christians, who have historically burnt gays, find peculiarly offensive. But in a crazy scenario where militant gays burn down churches en masse, yes that's pretty bad. A comfortable majority of Muslims would hold similar views about homosexuality. I haven't seen you discuss that once. Why? So, I'm talking about how the Muslims are one of the many disadvantaged minorities in Australia, and you're talking about why I'm not lampooning them, specifically, because their beliefs, just like Christians, regarding gay marriage are wrong? Do you not see the irony here, you're upset that I'm not being politically correct because I'm not including Muslims. Lol |
Not really. A joke is a joke. Advocating for violence is not a joke. Is that sign a joke? What's the punch line? and would replacing churches with mosques still be a joke. The statement itself implies that gays are, in fact, the ones who are being burnt. By the churches. Which they have been through most of history. And the statement was made by lesbians who were smiling and kissing each other in front of Christians - something Christians, who have historically burnt gays, find peculiarly offensive. They don't find ISIS throwing gays from roof tops *today* offensive? They don't find the majority of homosexual refugees coming from majority Muslim nations offensive? When was the last time a homosexual person was burnt (as in set fire to to death) in Australia by Christians? f*** and you complain about Abbott being stuck in the 50's. Least it's the 1950's and not the 1450's. |
I don't think they had the opportunity to attend the next door ISIS anti-gay convention.
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would replacing churches with mosques still be a joke. Where are you getting this information from? What political party is advocating for this in Australia? |
Oh well that's fine then.
You know they weren't protesting the members of the inquisition who actually burnt gays right? Or is that a step of logic too far. Where are you getting this information from? What political party is advocating for this in Australia? Just answer the f*****g question. |
You know they weren't protesting the members of the inquisition who actually burnt gays right? Or is that a step of logic too far. They're just protesting the institution whose laws and texts have been preserved as sacred since that time. Christian institutions who have not recognised, made amends nor apologised for actions against homosexuals over the ages, because they still consider their very existence morally evil. replacing churches with mosques still be a joke Alright. So the question is as I understand it: is state-enforced religious dogma funny? No. State and religion should be separate. Even then, I can't think of any recognised political party or seat in the whole country which represents constituents that want to replace churches with mosques. |
They're just protesting the institution whose laws and texts have been preserved as sacred since that time. And before then, even. So why aren't they protesting the laws and texts of Muslims who are also preserved and held sacred and current marriage laws are perfectly consistent with. And in whose name indescribable atrocities are carried out contemporaneously and not historically? So the question is as I understand it: is state-enforced religious dogma funny? No. State and religion should be separate. So not the question then. Just a quick addendum every post you've made so far is demonstrating this point because then you can conflate racism with blasphemy. More and more concretely. |
somewhat similar to the recent GayFL fail, Sport is the place you go to get away from the stupid s***. Kapaernick is another Adam Goodes. Rich minority that claims the country that made him rich is Racist. Another Stan Grant.
Black Americans are killing Black Americans why doesnt he 'take a knee' over that ? NFL ratings are Way down, I wonder why ? https://i.imgur.com/0QcYOvS.jpg |
Black Americans are killing Black Americansit's cute to suggest that he's somehow not aware of or indifferent to black-on-black violence but of course that is no the case; he's donating a million dollars (while unemployed) to various charities to help fight poverty & the conditions that create & contribute to that violence. I think maybe he's just pissed off about the last few years of evidence that show cops kill more black people by a significant number. Something that amazingly is not evident in your graph (from the "weekly racist memes" facebook group I guess?) people can care about multiple things, sometimes even at the same time NFL ratings are Way down, I wonder why ?I suspect it has something to do with the fact that something like 200,000 people per MONTH are cutting the cable. ESPN are desperately trying to pretend this is not a problem. I am amazed Trump would dare calling football boring. Even amongst the most fanatic of his base supporters I can't imagine that comment would resonate very well (although no doubt on Twitter & elsewhere the Russian hordes have amplified the message that football is now, indeed, boring. |
Much more interesting: Great read from NYTimes on how drug decriminalisation & treating it as a sickness instead of a crime is working out in Portugal
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It could work here.. we have some welfare hacks who could exploit it.
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That imbecile Turnbull has another plan for the Yes, Minister Gas Crisis that has now worsened.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/gas-crisis-three-times-bigger-than-thought-turnbull-says-20170925-gyo418.html Hes going to write a stern letter to the Gas Bosses 46 % in the polls Turnbulls head is as empty as a eunuch's underpants. |
get classed as sick, collect free stuff while sitting on arse at home in public housing. just curious, is that what you think happens when someone gets diagnosed with an illness? just chill out collecting free s***? |
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2017/09/labor-goes-open-borders/
to be fair, what else is left for the fake neoliberal left than to spruik globalization, immigration, gay marriage, …? last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 08:44:45 27/Sep/17 |
Kapernick is 3 years ago news.
American gun deaths are a f*****g joke. Police, civilian, massacre ... doesn't matter. America's attachment to armaments is ridiculous. Totally valid when they were a developing nation and wild frontier. You know 250 years ago! They will never get it, they voted in Trump ... They are not smart people, there are lots of smart people in America, even if they had more smart people than Australia there would be another 300 million ... |
American gun deaths are a f*****g joke. Police, civilian, massacre ... doesn't matter. America's attachment to armaments is ridiculous. Totally valid when they were a developing nation and wild frontier. You know 250 years ago! People like to leave out the references to the right to bear arms serving the purpose of allowing well-regulated militias. ie, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The whole idea of a well-regulated militia in 21st century America, or any country for that matter, is utterly absurd. It might have made sense in WW2 Russia where the first person was given a gun, and the second person given only a clip, and was told "when he dies, take his gun". It makes utterly no sense when you have municipal, state and federal police forces, and individually managed military units. The whole point of that law was that so that when the guy from Charlie Company goes home and takes his military standard equipment home and stores it in his home, safely, he can't be charged - nor can anyone from the government order him to surrender his arms, knowing that the mission that guy might be sent on tomorrow might be to re-take a corrupt courthouse. It was never intended so that he can stop Jimmy Methhead robbing the local 7-Eleven. |
People like to leave out the references to the right to bear arms serving the purpose of allowing well-regulated militias. This is subject to considerable controversy. It seems to me that that you wouldn't include a mention of militia unless you were tying it to use of said firearms. But there is another school of thought, which has a reasonable well argued basis. It states the subordinate clause A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, Should be read as the right will allow the people to form a militia in a time of need. IE it is not tied to a standing militia, and is an individual right. Scalia's speech in the Heller case is a fairly exhaustive treatment you can find it here. It is probably worth noting that the collectivist school of thought held sway for the vast majority of US history. I agree that it could be modified to be significantly improved, I can't see a useful purpose for high capacity military weapons in the hands of general civilians. But Pyscho seems like a reasonable dude and I'm pretty sure he disagrees. With that said, the fitness for purpose for the current age is a question for the people. The constitution can be changed, if you can't get it changed its probably telling you something. |
after talking to many American's over the last couple of years through the mobile games i play i have come to the conclusion that trying to change American gun laws is a lost cause, it is f*****g ingrained from birth that guns are a regular thing and anyone who thinks other wise is a 'pussy liberal' or whatever. they are not all rednecks most of them are regaular people but holy s*** get them started on guns, they start posting pics of there collections, start discussing what guns they want, upgrades etc. buying their kids guns is a common thing.
it is completely insane and i just can't see how it can ever be changed, it is worse than religion. |
it's cute to suggest that he's somehow not aware of or indifferent to black-on-black violence but of course that is no the case; he's donating a million dollars (while unemployed) to various charities to help fight poverty & the conditions that create & contribute to that violence. Its cute you use the word "charity" and not "political activists". |
Australian Conservatives leader Cory Bernardi has defended an anti same-sex marriage robocall campaign as normal political practice, but maintains last weekendâs Yes campaign text message was âinvasiveâ.http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/s Heh |
(although no doubt on Twitter & elsewhere the Russian hordes have amplified the message that football is now, indeed, boring.Please close your brackets. Also yep - https://i.imgur.com/5xqJOEl.png edit: actually it appears that twitter was run by standard alt right trolls. |
who is more outraged about Macklemore doing his nice gay song at the footy gf, cory or tone, or are they EQUALLY OUTRAGED!?
hahaha, i cant even fathom how their brain works. |
Australian Conservatives leader Cory Bernardi has defended an anti same-sex marriage robocall campaign as normal political practice, but maintains last weekend’s Yes campaign text message was “invasiveâ€. How? |
by being hypocritical more than likely.
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edit: actually it appears that twitter was run by standard alt right trolls.I think alt right trolls is now becoming synonymous with "Russians" these days beware the Russian spies lurking everywhere! it's just like the Cold War only far more f*****g annoying! |
who is more outraged about Macklemore doing his nice gay song at the footy gf, cory or tone, or are they EQUALLY OUTRAGED!?haha and this clown. Not sure I can bring myself to watch NRL in support though. |
Remember that time Macklemore dressed as a nazi propaganda jew?
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It's only okay to dress as a nazi if you're marching in the street calling for the death of any one who isn't straight and white.
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Oh good so you guys are exactly as unprincipled as I knew you were.
Singer selected for one of the largest stages in sport for his 'inclusiveness" has record of anti-Semitism and it doesn't bother you because he's on message. Look forward to see you gettin y0 punch on vash. Oh those nazi's they have to be stopped. But left-wingers get a bit funny about jews don't they. |
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/d I am into free speech ... presumably two songs should be played, one for gay marriage and one against gay marriage, Mr Dutton said. So apparently free speech is being threatened because a gay anthem is to be sung. This lot are a laugh. |
literally saying the opposite.
You really really really need to learn to read. |
Muh free speech is touted constantly by conservatives when things happen in society they don't like. Such as this case.
They should be giddy that such a thing is happening, it's free speech after all. If conservatives want to exercise their free speech, organise an anti gay marriage anthem and stop complaining. |
I am into free speech ... presumably two songs should be played, one for gay marriage and one against gay marriage, Mr Dutton said. Sounding a lot like mr Dutton there vash. |
Never heard of Macklemore or this song which I'm sure is utterly terrible. Seems to be making a bunch of homophobes upset though which is always a good thing. Too bad he's a complete nutter I suppose.
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So let me get this straight. complete nutter is anti-semitic and shouldn't be deplatformed, a tactic which you support, because
Seems to be making a bunch of homophobes upset though which is always a good thing. But "Nazis" whose striking feature is anti-semitism should be punched and outlawed. In the ball park there am I champ? Thanks for that. Listening to your Guys to day the president of America of the USA did (something fpot feels very strongly about) Will be all the more enjoyable. |
we really need to double down on our pre conceived notions
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Says the guy who claimed pirating was borrowing then when called out doubled down.
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I'll be takin' a knee during the Gay Anthem because Straight Lives Matter.
http://www.vladtv.com/images/size_fs/video-232006.jpg |
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/nfl/outrage Good article this one. Waleed often on point. |
Waleed Aly is a dribbling idiot.
You can tell because he is a "counter-terrorism expert" who is confused about the motivations of boko-haram. This is something which is news to boko-haram. But moreover the host of a show that nightly politicizes everything complaining about total politcs is an irony supernova |
He's not an idiot, he's just influenced by Mohammed's cult - something he was born into... and difficult to leave without consequences in one form or another.
I hope one day he and his loopy wife walk away from Mohammedism. I'd be interested in what he has to say when his mind in unencumbered by "religion" |
heheheheh mohammedism.
See now that's perhaps what I dislike most about the anti-PC, r/imgoingtohellforthis and white pride crowd. Racism, ableism, prejudice etc is -not funny-. Dark humour and comedy shows like that need to be self aware, at the very least |
cory wont be letting tone be the most backward politician in australia on his watch!
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/lifestyle/how-cory-bernardis-attempt-to-smear-wear-a-dress-day-ended-in-a-windfall-20170928-gyqzdz.html |
The alternative to being an idiot and being "confused" about the motivations of Boko-Haram isn't pleasant slaps.
He may have a solid IQ. But he is totally lost not only in mohammed praise, but worse and more importantly he is drowning in post-modernism. This is not something that affects Maajid Nawaz but it is something that affects Reza Aslan. Go and look up Aly getting his ass roundly handed to him by hitchens on Q&A. He uses text book po-mo arguments (there is no message of a text its all symbols and people fill them in experientially #pukatronics that literally commits you to saying there is nothing inherently violent about saying smite the necks of the infidels). There is nothing intelligent about trucking out standard deleuze/foucault/marcuse, thats just an undergrad arts degree reading list. The sooner po-mo is stamped out the sooner we can all get on with our lives. |
I think he is very smart. He's a paid celebrity ~ his regular lefty song and dance act keeps him in a job on the project.
Kinda like how Andrew Bolt gives all the righty's something to jizz over. last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 09:42:56 30/Sep/17 |
Nothing you're saying is casting him in a more positive light.
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I fail to see how his religious preferences has anything to do with the article i linked. This is the kind of stuff you see on The Australian comments whenever Waleed is mentioned.
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Vash it seems you've forgotten you invited responses on not only the article but the person himself when you allotted just as many characters for the latter as you did the former :)
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This is a political thread is it not? He's a lecturer in politics at Monash, and his articles on politics are often on point, as i said. Let's attack his religious beliefs instead of the points he makes in his articles.
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What I'm getting at is that you (perhaps unintentionally) invited criticism of him in general by the addition of "Waleed often on point.". The context you're now framing that in was not apparent in the original post.
I happen to agree it'd be useful to respond to the article itself, but I was just surprised you seemed annoyed when people seemingly took your bait so to speak. |
Wasn't intended as bait. I don't agree with his religious views, and they don't detract from points he makes in his articles.
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"Such poor leadership ability by the Mayor of San Juan, and others in Puerto Rico, who are not able to get their workers to help. They want everything to be done for them when it should be a community effort." The President tweeted from his private golf club.https://i.imgur.com/flufVzw.jpg The mayor of San Juan who was recently attacked for allegedly wanting everything done for her. |
I happen to agree it'd be useful to respond to the article itself Ahem. but moreover the host of a show that nightly politicizes everything complaining about total politcs is an irony supernova But if you'd like it to be more specific. This is Waleed's thesis
putting aside for one second that is the basis of his career, he then goes on to say But if taking the knee is meant to convey anything, it is precisely that the continued unaccountable violence of the state against black Americans – and now the President's flirtations with white supremacists – mean many athletes cannot feel the nation really does encompass them, so much as it dominates them. It is literally impossible to take someone who says s*** like that seriously. There is not a single factually correct assertion in that passage. not one. for example, by failing to bring up the fact Macklemore has literally dressed as an anti-semitic caricature of a jew and roundly condemn it, Waleed is as close to flirting with anti-semitism as trump has ever been to flirting with white supremacy. Which leaves, if he is in fact intelligent, one remaining explanation. Its andrew bolt style red meat for lefties. Based on the fact Vash posted it, well that's not insignificant now is it? |
Just because you feel its a factually incorrect statement doesn't make it so, PP.
Continued unaccountable violence of the state against black Americans - Fact, its happening. and now the President's flirtations with white supremacists - Yup, that happened. |
neither of those things is happening Vash and thank you for demonstrating my point.
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Cute. Surely there's no reason the BLM movement was started.
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red meat vash, tasty tasty red meat.
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MiLo is coming...
Thats Vash Triggered http://www.news.com.au/national/internet-supervillain-milo-yiannopoulos-touring-australia/news-story/2cf7d8ce306820a9fa24ffc5dda7d6b7 A very Gay Conservative. |
milo just needs less attention, and then he'd go away for ever.
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Conservative radio big fans of free speech. |
The problem is we seem to have forgotten that a lot of these "political pundits / commentators" are just entertainers at heart (one could even stretch to failed actors for many), or even just decrepit salespeople (like Alex Jones). They'll tow whatever line works with the particular demographic they are making money from. They don't actually have any real political insight, despite being able to piggyback on some relatable vibes or hot topics - which isn't really that special a talent, certainly not in the entertainment or sales world.
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lol at that /r/The_Donald pic
I got alt-right bingo - "antifa", "soros", "shillary" is any one of those c*********s a real person and not trolling everyone else? |
Arguments over free speech on campus are not left v right. As Reed College in Oregon shows, left v left clashes can be equally vitriolic: https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21728 Assistant professor Lucia Martinez Valdivia, who describes herself as mixed-race and queer, asked protesters not to demonstrate during her lecture on Sappho last November. Ms Valdivia said she suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and doubted her ability to deliver the lecture in the face of their opposition. At first, demonstrators announced they would change tactics and sit quietly in the audience, wearing black. After her speech, a number of them berated her, bringing her to tears. |
The "Vetocracy" is making Trump a toothless tiger
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/north-america/peter-hartcher-20171006-gyvw2x.html |
Today the Vice President of the United States of America walked out of a football game because a black person dared to protest peacefully against murder. Meanwhile white supremacists marched again in Charlottesville.
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today fpot lubed up and rubbed one out to the Vice President of the United States of America walked out of a football game because a black person dared to protest peacefully against murder. Meanwhile white supremacists marched again in Charlottesville. |
Who here has dreams (nightmares) that Trump is coming to get them? Cumon, it's ok to talk it through. It's good to talk.
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Who here has dreams (nightmares) that Trump is coming to get them? Cumon, it's ok to talk it through. It's good to talk.Why would he be coming to get me? |
MORE LEFTIST PROPAGANDER from another f***** bleeding heart leftie. I bet she doesn't even understand the economy or run her own businesses. Doesn't even talk about the REAL ISSUES like how we need LESS DEBT. Probably doesn't understand governments should STOP SPENDING and MAKE money. duh, gov't should be run like a business. Efficient. Private sector is best anyway. Business owners know best. Especially wealthy/succesfful ones. Like Trump. Wealthy people employ poor people, more money for wealthy people = more jobs = better economy. But poor people choose to be poor as well. Trump knows these things. Have you seen his IQ? Less $pending = less taxe$ = more money for wealthy = more jobs = more tax revenue Simple. Easy. Our tax system is BROKEN. Do you hear a dog whistle? Anyway taxes are evil. So are those lazy, job-stealing foreigners and gays. This message brought to you by Jesus' Unconditional Love
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Did you guys know quotas are evil and racist, we've already got equality, and women/blacks/immigrants are just biologically bad at things?
https://i.redd.it/n501hhrjr0rz.png |
https://s1.postimg.org/1g1ps68zfz/trumpnews.png
This is the bit where the President of the United States of America signals his intention to take any organisation that publishes or presents negative things about him off the air. Is it about time we revisit that early warning signs of fascism poster? Get your ticking pen ready. |
But but fpot it's not facism it's just his right to free speech
He's a STRAIGHT TALKER |
Did you guys know quotas are evil and racist, we've already got equality, and women/blacks/immigrants are just biologically bad at things?Pretty good image that illustrates the problem well; also applies to women & other minorities. |
Pretty good image that illustrates the problem well; also applies to women & other minorities. Not to Jews or Asians though right. They both have, as groups, on average higher annual wages, higher college entry scores, longevity than whites. But the system is definitely set up only to benefit white males. Anyway this thread appears to descended into vash phooks and fpot swapping d*** picks. |
not sure what that floaty rectangle that the white guy is climbing onto is, but the message is clear
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Not to Jews or Asians though right. For those new to Trumpspeak this is what's known as a "whataboutism" |
For those new to Trumpspeak this is what's known as a "whataboutism" Or alternatively a counter example to the thesis society is institutionally racist in favour of whites. For those new to the comic its progressivespeak for "strawman narrative" and a severe case of "correlation is causationitis". |
For those new to Trumpspeak this is what's known as a "whataboutism"Go to r_thedonald or r_proudboys or any alt-right lair and you'll often see the what about jews and asians argument trotted out. It's really handy for them because it's a great dog whistle for how dark-skinned people are genetically and/or culturally inferior to others. It's also an effective alibi - how can I be a white supremacist if I am praising asians and jews? I am just searching for the truth and asking questions maaaannn. The Harvey Weinstein thing is driving the alt-right crazy at the moment. On one hand a man is facing justice for sexually harassing a woman, but on the other it's a whataboutism tool that can be used to minimise Trump's actions. Must be really hard for them to decide which way to go with it. |
still ignoring me hey fpot.
Go to r_thedonald or r_proudboys You know for a non-white supremacist you sure do know all the hang outs. Got to get that "outrage juice" flowing somehow huh. take a shower bro you stink of sex. you'll often see the what about jews and asians argument trotted out. Hey how about this. You explain how whites aren't at the top of the pile of a white supremacist nation? Guys today the president of America. of the united states. wife. donated dr seuss books to a public library. I know right. total white supremacist move. The cat in the hat was mandatory reading for the Hitler youth. My progressive d*** is way bigger than all yall. I'm offended by children's books. |
All races have s***** people, and we should stop being so tolerant of parasites.
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The Harvey Weinstein thing is driving the alt-right crazy at the moment. On one hand a man is facing justice for sexually harassing a woman, but on the other it's a whataboutism tool that can be used to minimise Trump's actions. Must be really hard for them to decide which way to go with it. probably the second one, as it’s hard to imagine the alt reich types giving a rat’s arse about justice for women |
Funny fpot wants to frame a prominent life long democrat who is also a serial sexual predator as an issue of the alt-right.
funny indeed. It's not like feminism was a central theme of hillary's campaign or anything. interesting word that "whataboutery" isn't it. |
Cities in America with the highest Black populations have the most Crime, Murders, Gun Violence, Single Mums, Men in Prison
But yeah its because Boss Man dun keepin' duh bruthers down Michelle Obama = "I want to start by thanking Harvey Weinstein for organizing this amazing day. This is possible because of Harvey. He is a wonderful human being, a good friend and just a powerhouse. " yeah... a powerhouse abuser of Women like bill clinton. ...and people wonder why the Democrat Party keeps going backwards Hollywood Liberal Hypocrites |
Cities in America with the highest Black populations have the most Crime, Murders, Gun Violence, Single Mums, Men in Prison Care to look at the history on the treatment of blacks in America? You might find the reason why that is. |
...and people wonder why the Democrat Party keeps going backwards Hollywood Liberal Hypocrites you’re nearly there, you just need to establish that the Democrats knew about the sexual assaults |
well they knew about bill Clinton and his trips to Pedo Island with convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein.
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It's about time politicians started to tell mass media to jam it. People who are too busy working to support the dole bludgers and rent a crowds don't watch the news as much as the dole bludgers and rent a crowds . Thus the news tugs on the heart string messages of the entitled so they go out and waste money on the dumb things that are advertised between whatever negative rubbish they can find.. then they it off with a smiling puppy.s*** just got real. Perhaps you have some sort of final solution to propose? |
I was going to say something along these lines but Nmag's gimmick is to say the dumbest things possible, ignore the replies and post with one of his six alt accounts for a few days and then repeat the process.
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it's about time politicians started to tell mass media to jam it. Another seduced by the Trump. You're smarter than that, aren't you, Nmag? Back in the real world, people are affected by circumstances out of their control. |
but vash can see through the spin.
Care to look at the history on the treatment of blacks in America? You might find the reason why that is. You see he gets it. because Chinese coming to California in the 1800's had the red carpet rolled out for them. They weren't abused to build the railroads at all. |
I propose not all people be allow to breed.
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I propose not all be allow to breed, and some be sterilised. Sounds good. Let's start with you. |
I propose not all be allow to breed, and some be sterilised. Abortion and Contraception have already done a good job of that Now we have to import people. If it wasnt for those ppl that You think shouldnt breed we would need to import even more people. Maybe you like importing people who follow a pedo-friendly - wife beating, homo murdering, honor killing Religion ? Me, Id rather poor white trash have kids and lots of them. Because... We were here first. |
its just as relevant an excuse Slaps.
People complain about Immigration but they dont ever complain about why its needed. We dont make enough people. 100 000 years and we achieved making less people. |
Isn't it the lazy way to 'grow' the economy? More people = more stuff needed = stronger economy? Although, it no doubt leads to income inequality.
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^ Yep.
The real point is the Government is lazy. They see turning on the immigration tap as an easy fix for the economy. They just turn on tap and don't plan. Hence, why Sydney and Melbourne are so packed. Wouldn't it make sense to encourage migrants to go to smaller satellite cities and build those up first? |
Birthrates of Australians are down, that's partly why we need more immigration to maintain & grow the population as well as the economy.
People want to live in cities, and there has been incentives to get more people moving to regional areas, but you can't force them to. |
^ presumably so there'll be someone to pay for all the old farts' pensions
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Why is endless growth a priority? That's how you keep Capitalism functioning. Japanese population is in decline but their economy hasn't broken down - so why? The effects of an aging population have yet to fully hit them as yet. It will though. |
You throw a party in your backyard. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?
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You have a country. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria? The latter is already in effect. Not sure what your point is? We don't have an open border policy |
Isn't it the lazy way to 'grow' the economy? More people = more stuff needed = stronger economy? Although, it no doubt leads to income inequality.It is /not/ just about "more people". It is about the /right/ people. This is the most important thing the "f*** off we're full" dopes are missing (aside from the fact that we live in a staggeringly huge mostly empty country). If we want to develop industries faster, we need to bring in outside expertise. If we want to be competitive on a global scale, we need a way to bring those experts to us. (By the way, something like 70% of immigrants are skilled, with 40% of them being brought over by their company. ) You throw a party in your backyard. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?I'm happy to hear that, because it means (as Vash notes) you should be perfectly content with the current state of affairs Wouldn't it make sense to encourage migrants to go to smaller satellite cities and build those up first?They kind of do - there is a regional immigration scheme which takes up about 7% of the total # of immigrants. I imagine it is a very delicate balancing act because smaller cities are more "fragile" and less able to deal with larger influxes. But I agree that spreading them out is a good idea. I actually think regional growth is one of the most important things we can be doing anyway & we should be trying to get actual Australians out there just as urgently. Anyway. I'm pro strong border controls and immigration controls. But listening to Radio Moscow everywhere trying to make us deathly scared of all immigration all the time as a blanket policy is stupid. We need to bring outside expertise to grow our industries (particularly in high tech & engineering) because growing them ourselves will take too long. Sometimes we'll also need to bring in just regular people because we might open a new mine or something that requires a large number of people that can't be found on short notice. The government isn't just bringing in these people because they're deathly scared we're running out of citizens; they're doing it because they're vital liquidity in the engine that makes our country work. Finding the right balance is tough. |
F*** Off We're Full, Unless You're A Billionaire, Or Millionaire, Or A Skilled Worker, Or Contribute To Our Massive International Student, Trade And Tourism Industries, Or Cause Greater Cultural Links With Developing Nations That Will Prove Useful For Growing International Strategic Military And Geopolitical Relations, But Definitely DEFINITELY NOT The Enrichment Of Our Cultural Diversity In General Because That Is Straight-Up Liberal-Arts-F*****y S***, I Mean Did You See Our G20 Cultural Celebrations I Mean Wow We Are Just Exploding With Culture Already.
A.k.a. F*** Those Lazy Foreigners Taking Our Land & Jobs. A.k.a. I wan't the Australian economy to be competitive, but I don't want to actually compete in it. |
Well GDP growth over the past 20 years in india is exponential. |
India is (IMO) the single most interesting economic market in the world today, not just because of recent growth but because the huge changes the current leadership is going for. Big shift to digital to get away from cash corruption, rebuilding their financial frameworks.. big stuff. A democratic population of a billion people being dragged out of the third world though a stronger (most western style, if you like) commercial framework is going to be a big deal.
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Noted Japanese american white supremacist touts the white supremacist line Asian Americans out perform whites in white supremacist america. Only reasonable conclusion is that he is a nazi white supremacist. This is based on the flawless logic that similar research has been quoted on pro trump web forums.
I think I'm getting the hang of this fpot. If you say white supremacist enough times, its like its true. |
anyone else enjoying the "clean coal" propaganda ad's that have been on tv for a while now?
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So Antifa learning how to defeat fascism by becoming fascists, it's too much! https://www.buzzfeed.com/katetalerico/from-gym-to- Pretty interesting: Though most Russian efforts unveiled thus far seem to have been aimed at weaponizing the far right, the existence of BlackMattersUS indicates Russian agents were equally motivated to infiltrate the far left in order to amplify partisan divides that would simultaneously energize Trump's base and disillusion Hillary's. Last month, the Daily Beast reported that the same group of Russian agents that organized pro-Trump rallies in the U.S. also impersonated a U.S.-based Muslim nonprofit organization for more than one year on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, in an attempt to fuel divisions. Evidence linking those efforts directly to the Kremlin is mounting; U.S. officials believe that Yevgeny Prigozhin, a Russian oligarch with close ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin, owns a company that is believed to provide financial support for the Internet Research Agency. The Russians have aced this in the Ukraine and are no doubt doing it in the Baltics, all part of their new 'hybrid warfare' doctrine it seems. Amazing that they've managed to execute it in the US and are probably doing it in other Western countries. It was proven that Putin financed Le Pen in France. |
Also thought this was on topic for you trog: The Russian Troll Farm that Weaponised Facebook had American Boots on the Groundnice one. I have long been suspicious about antifa being paid Russian agitators or right wing false flaggers anyway :D It's amazing how much impact a few bucks can have when things are on a big of a knife's edge |
anyone else enjoying the "clean coal" propaganda ad's that have been on tv for a while now? Yep, it's pathetic. There's no such thing as 'clean coal plants'. Typical industry weasel wording. However, there are the next gen super critical coal plants that are more efficient. last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 22:04:24 20/Oct/17 |
I have long been suspicious about antifa being paid Russian agitators or right wing false flaggers anyway :D Well shucks trog I guess the haymaker collective in the fawing buzzfeed piece directly above it must be a bunch of russian funded plants. Nothing says responsible journalism like comparing that to a jewish boxing club in italy in 1938. But wait, maybe buzzfeed are Russian plants. I mean they *refuse* to condemn antifa and there is now "mounting" evidence antifa are Russian plants. just to make that leap a little higher for you trump refuses to condemn Putin is the catch cry of the collusion crowd. Russia maybe exploiting something, but there has to be something to exploit. there are real problems in western political thought at the moment. Here is hero of the moment Macron.
My emphasis. I wonder if there is a parallel between "creating grand narratives" and "make amercia great again"? Left wing politics has been close to completely consumed by post-modernism. Who'd have thought a valueless nihilistic political theory would be ripe for exploitation? probably anyone with two brain cells to rub together. Russia didn't force anyone to adopt such a s***ful philosophy, though they were probably rubbing their hands together watching it take hold. |
Being Black in America is like playing 'The Game Of Life' on Hard mode. Yeah, choices can make a difference, it's a lot harder though for an average Black person vs an average White person. Surely you must understand that right?
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Yes Faceman, that is indeed a great example of exactly the kind of propaganda spread by Russian trolls to try to "with the aim of fomenting divisions in the US"! Nice find.
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Being Black in America is like playing 'The Game Of Life' on Hard mode. Yeah, choices can make a difference, it's a lot harder though for an average Black person vs an average White person. Surely you must understand that right? Why don't they move to a nation (not city/suburb) with less white people and not deal with the competition whites introduce into their lives? Maybe some do? |
Yes Faceman, that is indeed a great example of exactly the kind of propaganda spread by Russian trolls to try to "with the aim of fomenting divisions in the US"! Nice find. Not according to vipers vanity fair article trog my sweet. *russian* trolls try to look as much like black lives matter as possible. I'm sure you read the article carefully. |
I don't know s*** about NZ politics but new leadership is making a lot of waves. My FB contacts (n=3) seem divided, but it seems like doing referendums is the in thing to do now: "Ms Ardern said on Friday — after her election victory was confirmed — that New Zealand would hold a referendum on whether to legalise recreational marijuana use within three years."
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Fresh change from the new NZ PM. |
Oh. Maybe she is a bit weird. From the article: "If you have hundreds of thousands of children living in homes without enough to survive, that's a blatant failure. What else could you describe it as?"
I mean I can think of lots of things to describe it as. I find it hard to believe NZ has "hundreds of thousands" of homeless children that don't have enough to survive. Not clear from context what she is talking about. |
I think she means more world wide, which is more like in the millions.
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Ms Ardern said her Government wouldn't measure economic success just on things like GDP. Disgusting. What about the ECONOMY!? The DEBT!?$?! |
watch out phooks has been drinking and gotten triggered again.
I think she means more world wide, which is more like in the millions. Dude you should be on the stage. There should be a prize for unintentional comedy. Capitalism has failed world wide because the global homeless total runs into the millions. gold. |
Black man argues white liberals over use "white supremacist" and "racist" on CNN.
Just another white supremacist with internalized white supremacy preaching to the white supremacists on a white supremacist news outlet I say. and he is racist. |
breaking news - unions donate to the ALP
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It is hilarious how desperate Libs are to shut down getup. Meanwhile the IPA is fine.
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Well mr barnaby and others gave just been deemed inelligble for parliment.
Very interdesting |
I reckon the Libs knew this was coming, hence the stupid political stunts they pulled yesterday. He should have been stood down when the investigation started.
This could get messy if they retroactively go back and remove the ineligible votes from the Senate and House of Reps. |
I've not read the judgement yet, but matt canavan was spared the axe. It'll be interesting to see what limitations the court placed on the application of s 44.
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So when are we going to see Barnaby arrested for defrauding the electorate? How much has he made while being ineligible for his position?
I'm sure he claims it was an innocent mistake but it's not like the government goes easy on people when they make innocent mistakes on their taxes and this is far more serious than that. |
I've not read the judgement yet, but matt canavan was spared the axe. It'll be interesting to see what limitations the court placed on the application of s 44. ABC had some quick points on why things panned out the way they did re the judgements per MP. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-27/citizenship- |
Cheers,
I think I'll sift through the judgment. Joyce's case is somewhat more complex than it seems. He should have renounced, it's a pretty inexcusable oversight. But when he came to Australia I'm not sure "Australian citizenship" was a thing or "New Zealand" citizenship for that matter. Its a hang up of the British empire, but because NZ and Aus were domains of the crown everyone was just a British citizen. I expect this will all be dealt with in detail in the judgment, but I'm not sure he ever applied for citizenship to Australia (but he is a citizen). |
how the f*** did roberts get elected in the first place?
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proportional voting is a hell of a drug
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Dad will be back, hes going to run in the QLD State in Hansons Ipswich area.
currently Labor seats. Matt Canavan is back he is anti-Blackouts and very popular in QLD country. |
I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?
Great to see Roberts gone, what a joke he is. |
from the horses mouth for those interested.
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I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win? Correct. Which is what he has said he plans to do. |
good thing Waters and Ludlam were among those ruled against or they'd have really felt like a pair of tits for quitting
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I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?He already has renounced, I think they all did as soon as they found out. Him winning isn't a foregone conclusion though, bi-elections are very different than a national affair. Most people usually vote for a party rather than specifically for their local candidate during a national election but for a bi-election the candidates are a lot more exposed. Joyce will probably still win though, having a party leader as the member for your area brings a lot of benefits, an independent holding the balance of power would bring just as much if not more but I'm not sure there is a worthy opponent now that Windsor has bowed out. Labor could also end up throwing up a legal challenge or two. |
Have you ever considered that the way society is structured is the problem
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Have you ever considered that the way society is structured is the problemThere is no reason to think the way society is structured is in any way a problem. Really we just need to lower taxes and less government. Pretty simple. Also run government like a business. Also less |
oh a link to a vox article that says society has to change. and a guardian article.
Phooks is triggered again. |
lol is that the best you got? bit of a broken record at this point
I wonder, do you have any principles at all? Or do you just do believe what authority tells you to at any given moment. Maybe tell us why inequality is a good thing hey |
If I was Equally-challenged I would do something about it myself, not rely on Government to help me because:
The NBN The Gas Crisis The Electricity Grid Indian made Trains that wont fit on QLD tracks Desal Plants any Policy that Malcolm Turnbull has touched Ceiling Bats Gonski $50 billion Subs that are Diesal but require Nuclear Power so they wont work. Murray River Water disaster ..and you want Government to make you wealthy ? maybe you should try voting for the other guy ? One Nation Tsunami coming lead us to The Promised Land Mum and Dad http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/3c0e93d6b69c261f0d4e22e0be6d04b4 |
These officials must dread every questioning by One Nation senators. My god they are so dumb.
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lol is that the best you got? bit of a broken record at this point Is that self referential? Because you've never done anything other than what you're doing. You quote some mindless liberal article and then scream some epitaph you think sum up anyone who doesn't vote green left. I wonder, do you have any principles at all? Or do you just do believe what authority tells you to at any given moment. Maybe tell us why inequality is a good thing hey Maybe tell us why its a bad thing? OR the more interesting question, what lengths would you be willing to go to see everyone exactly equal? Because the overwhelming evidence of history shows unequivocally that an exactly equal outcome society is a nightmare realized. But here is the thing phooks. I'd rather be a pragmatist than highfalutin "principled" hypocrite like you. I doubt you actually have any principles you've actually thought about with any depth. You're position on every topic you mentioned can be neatly summed by regurgitating a guardian article on the topic. I've never seen you or fpot or vash offer an opinion that isn't the company line not one. infi's opinion on issues is less predictable than all three of you combined. But enough responding to the cheap bait. You're triggered. My god they are so dumb. Yeah but you're dumber. |
wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure. stop trying to repair what is broken we need a new system. if the root cause of the problem isn't addressed the problem remains simple as that.
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enough responding to the cheap bait. You're triggered. responding to the cheap bait triggered lol the overwhelming evidence of history shows unequivocally that an exactly equal outcome society is a nightmare realized. This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it. wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure Would you mind explaining? I must assume this comes from some sort of conspiracy theory, or even a basic failing of economic understanding which is very forgivable. Monetary policy is pretty well academically documented and both neo-cons and neo-libs generally have decent economic modelling behind their policies and taxes/rates. What do you mean by 'root cause'? Currency itself? Fiat systems? If your problem is with things like the reserve bank (ala mentioned in pop-conspiracy theories), and you think the solution lies in things like cryptocurrency, I would encourage you to do research about the origins and development of currency itself. I think the economist(?) did a piece about how Bitcoin is fiat money. What is your alternative to the root cause? |
[quote]wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure. stop trying to repair what is broken we need a new system. if the root cause of the problem isn't addressed the problem remains simple as that.[/quote]
the new system/s is already there. just like politics, it's a waiting game to see how the mob adapts this is money - it's not rocket science. Look around the lowest common denominator always wins out |
This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it. Yeah it shows in all his posts. |
So when are you guys heading across the ditch to New Venezuela ?
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Triggered again mate. F***en hell been drinken too? I encourage you to think on it because you clearly haven't and I'm right. Perfect equality of outcome has been repeatedly proven to be a nightmare. Venezuelans can all "equally" not afford to buy food now. Like the chinese cubans and russians before them. But here is a real chesnut for you, you driveling moron. Which are you really for? Diversity or equality. You can't have both. They are irreconcilable concepts. Diversity *requires* inequality in some dimensions. Yeah it shows in all his posts. Gee there is no show without dumb c*** is there. Here comes Vash. Independent thought is over rated you f*****g peasant. |
F***en hell There it is. Triggered. |
What I love about the Russia hacked the election story is that while intelligence agencies do say they attempted to influence, that is all they say.
To think that Russia stole the election you only need to believe. $100,000 on facebook ads is more effective than $1.4b in advertising (a large amount of which was spent ... on facebook), and that Russia somehow convinced Clinton not to campaign in the three states that ended up mattering, and to adopt a toxic form of identity politics which had *multi-millionaire* pop stars talking about "privilege" to ordinary people. Oh and convinced Clinton to try to rig the DNC primaries. Oh and to Convince Clinton to use the Clinton foundation as a pay to play system for the past decade. Got hundreds of journalists to write those "hold your nose and vote Clinton" newspaper stories (including John Oliver). And engineered a countrywide appetite for electing an outsider on both sides of the political spectrum a year before polling day. Those Russians sure got a lot of bang for their $100k in facebook ads. What I really love about the Russia hacked the election story is how completely it exonerates a catastrophically bad campaign. I might wash that down with some I do encourage you to reflect on it. stated unironically. |
What I love about the Russia hacked the election story is that while intelligence agencies do say they attempted to influence, that is all they say.They did try to gain direct access to the electoral servers though. IMO the whole Trump collusion thing is distracting from the fact that Russia are basically attacking America's democracy. Whether you think Trump knowingly colluded or not and I'm personally not convinced he did (some in his campaign may have but I don't really give much credit to Trump), the fact is Russia has made a deliberate attempt to destabilize America's democracy which should be concerning to all. |
Yeah it seems to me Trump is just the plague carcass catapulted into the USA by Russia. Why on earth would they clue him in on the plan? He's dumb and chances are he'd just f*** it up for them. Some of his underlings would know something though. They'll be exposed in time.
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"Punching people is Nazism, and the more people you punch, the Nazier you become."
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the fact is Russia has made a deliberate attempt to destabilize America's democracy which should be concerning to all. Pft, every country does this all the time. It's nothing new. I'm seriously surprised how worked up and outraged people are getting over this. If they were *actually* hacking voting machines and changing results, then yeah, it would be a problem. But social influence over voting? Oh come on, every country has done this through propoganda for centuries. |
Yeah it seems to me Trump is just the plague carcass catapulted into the USA by Russia. Called it. What I really love about the Russia hacked the election story is how completely it exonerates a catastrophically bad campaign. The outgroup bias never has to be ruffled. |
https://i.redd.it/l95duhvhupzy.jpg
"I used to work at McDonald's making minimum wage. You know what that means when someone pays you minimum wage? You know what your boss was trying to say? "Hey if I could pay you less, I would, but it's against the law." https://i.redd.it/jmcju96zg67z.jpg |
The outgroup bias never has to be ruffled. A pro-russian Aussie nationalist? Glad to see Trumpism is spreading across the ocean |
How about this as an idea for minimum wage:
We remove the minimum wage for anyone under the age of (say) 22-25. It's free market all the way down. We leave the other employee protections in place (penalty rates, holiday time, rest time, etc) or maybe even bump them up a bit. But, we put in a (higher) minimum wage for people above that age bracket. The idea is basically trying to compromise between the needs of business and the reality that the competition that comes from capitalism and the increased business flexibility that will result having access to employing more people, and the fact that basically at some point we should be paying people what they need to survive and have a good life. I've argued about this with my bro; he hates this idea because he thinks that if you're 18 and can do a good enough job as a fry cook, you should be paid the same as someone who is 21. I kinda get this. My thought though was that if you're young you should be incentivised strongly to skill up beyond basic labour; I like the idea of trying to get our young people into university and/or trades to get skilled up. I think it will be harder to justify for them if they're earning a high minimum wage (as Australia has). I think the reality of the situation is unskilled labour jobs will be the first to go as soon as they can be automated out and it is important to try to get the "youth" used to this sooner rather than later. (I do think skilled labour jobs will be on the chopping block sooner than people think too.) Businesses can focus on having a larger pool of lower paid employees to have more business flexibility. Any employees that stick around for long enough to become experts/managers/whatever and decide to make a career out of it can do so; presumably in many cases it will be more cost effective to have these employees even at a higher rate of pay than 2-3 noobs. BUT, I think it's critical to acknowledge that we're going to end up with a part of the population that might be replaced by machines and their prospects might not be great. I think those that are working in these (dwindling) industries as a career need to be taken care of properly and not cast aside, so having a "bump" of minimum wage at some point seems like a reasonable compromise. Thoughts? |
look at you go phooks.
Triggered again. I look forward to vash agreeing with you. I do encourage you to reflect on it. You're ... not ... capable of this are you. |
according to phooks though trog if a fry cook earns less than an orthopedic surgeon its oppression and you're a labour rapist if you disagree.
Am I doing it right phooks? |
Thoughts? you just s*** on every long-term unemployed mature person. well done! |
Yeh, I guess I just don't think it's a better scenario to remove all minimum wage so those long-term unemployed mature people are battling it out for $5/hour jobs at McDonalds (before those jobs are replaced by machines anyway). If they can't find jobs in today's economy are we doing them favours by just lowering the bar even further and forcing them to compete with schoolkids? There has to be a better way of getting these people back into the economy.
Businesses will just free market things down to the bottom until their competition invents a robot to replace them to get labour costs down to zero. Then what happens? We can either acknowledge that our next generations need to be brought up with a different set of skills (or at the very least, skill in educability) and start solving the problem now or just keep kicking the can down the road. Maybe I'm wrong and we'll give up on the dream of automation and then we don't need to worry about it. But I keep thinking about the truck drivers. |
I think sometimes people over-estimate how far automation is going to go.
I'll give you an example on a small scale. One of the tasks I've set for myself tonight is I need to pull 70 tubes of watercolour paint out of a set of 250. Specific ones. In a worst-case scenario, that's going to mean I need to pick up every single tube one by one, and go through the list and say "is this particular item in my list". That's the fully-manual, slowest version of how I could do it. Now, luckily, I already automated part of my process to get this list to begin with: Instead of typing the descriptions and colours of every item I had, I scanned the UPC codes of every item, then wrote a tool to look up the item descriptions of those UPC codes. So I've got a list of UPC codes, and a flag whether or not that UPC code is in my list. Now to complete puzzle you would think I would just scan the UPC code of each item I pick, and get a Y/N. Thing is, I haven't developed that part. And here's where I get to the crossover of whether something is as fully-automated as I would plan to make it, or just go half-way. Writing something to integrate a scanner to do that lookup is more effort than the way I'm probably going to tackle it: Pick each item, and manually key in the last 3 digits of each UPC code. If they get a match, do a full check. That's the in-between solution. I don't need to fully automate this process, because the cost of developing and implementing that full level of automation is more than I'll save by doing the 50% implementation. In this case, I might as well just do some of the work manually. The cost-benefit of rolling out an automated process just isn't there for the yields. If it were being repeated constantly, sure. But that's an example of why automation isn't going to replace every single job - because it's not repetitive enough. Automation will only replace jobs where the process is completely replicable, repetitive, and where the machine can do as good or a better job than a person cheaper. If it's cheaper to just use a monkey, companies will continue to pay monkeys. |
If they can't find jobs in today's economy are we doing them favours by just lowering the bar even further and forcing them to compete with schoolkids? are we going to humiliate them by encouraging them on welfare because we made it illegal for them to accept a job below wage $X out of "kindness"? They will just go onto airtasker uber etc anyways. So the govt kind intentions are redundant anyway. Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment. The minimum wage is a dumb idea that has absolutely no reason to exist. |
Minimum wage is there to basically say "a person working full-time should be able to afford the mandatory expenses considered normal in current times.". That's why a minimum wage is necessary.
If a job is paying less than the basic minimum required to house, feed and cloth a person, it is a job that probably has no place existing at all. And if a business requires a person to perform that role in order for that business to function, then they need to be able to pay a living wage. And if a business can't be viable without covering those staff costs required to support the operation of the business, then the question should be asked whether that business needs to exist. |
Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment. this assumes that everyone can go on and get high wage jobs, which is simply not true for a multitude of reasons you would know most of these reasons |
so instead make believe that we can force jobs to be high wage by passing a LAW (let's pass a law that gravity no longer exists too), meanwhile vast sectors of the economy sidestep it through airtasker, uber, ubereats, independent contracting etc etc etc. The remainder stay entrenched on welfare. What a farcical delusion. lol
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Good to see you're sticking to your libertarian values infi. It's easy when it's helping keep poor people down. Funny how quickly they're abandoned when it gives you a chance to attack homosexuals, though. Almost like your libertarianism is a facade to mask your prejudice against anyone and everything that isn't white, straight and rich.
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So if the minimum wage is $600/week and Newstart is say $300, all those people who want to work for in between are shut out of the job market. So who is keeping the poor person down? Who is stopping people from working, forcing them on welfare and disrespecting their liberty to have a job?
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Any word on whether the "politicians" who defrauded the Australian tax payers for over 9 million dollars are going to have to pay it back and or spend a large chunk of time in prison?
I love it how some of them are now demanding a change to the constitution because they didn't have the competence to check their citizenship status before running for parliament. Lets spend more tax money having a referendum for the benefit of these a*******. |
The minimum wage is not $600 per week. It is x multiplied by the minimum hourly rate per week, x being the amount of hours worked. I see your months spent in the echo chamber havent made you any less dumb.
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are we going to humiliate them by encouraging them on welfare because we made it illegal for them to accept a job below wage $X out of "kindness"? They will just go onto airtasker uber etc anyways. So the govt kind intentions are redundant anyway.Welfare is a different topic though (but certainly related). I can only extrapolate that welfare will become more and more important going forward; it's just a logical conclusion if you think we're going to have machine doing everything anyway. But I don't see welfare as humiliating at all, certainly not compared to being 50 and having to get a job as a grill cook because that is your only option. Welfare to me in most cases is the government looking after you after you spent so many years contributing to its coffers. Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment.I dunno man I've now lived in three countries and the one that [generally] has no minimum wage is the one with the unhappiest people with the shortest life expectancy and the highest level of government debt and the most expensive healthcare and [... list of other things]. I think making citizens happier at the cost of slightly more expensive labour is a price worth paying. But in any case, I'm trying to find a /compromise/ between the free-market-extremist-capitalism point of view, and the everyone-should-get-all-the-money-all-the-time-no- |
If a job is paying less than the basic minimum required to house, feed and cloth a person, it is a job that probably has no place existing at all. And if a business requires a person to perform that role in order for that business to function, then they need to be able to pay a living wage. And if a business can't be viable without covering those staff costs required to support the operation of the business, then the question should be asked whether that business needs to exist.The problem with this is that you can argue that the basic minimums to house, feed, & clothe are just driven upwards by the minimum wage, because that's just what happens - the market charges what it can bear. If you just go around giving everyone free money, the prices will just go up proportionally. This is more or less I think what happens with various things like home buying grants, etc. And of course if you have a minimum wage the price of products has to go up proportionally to account for that because production costs are higher. So the argument against is that if there is no minimum wage it will make things cheaper. I think this is generally what happens in the US & why (outside of a few places) it seems like so many things are so cheap in the US - because they have to be because of the minimum wage. |
I love it how some of them are now demanding a change to the constitution because they didn't have the competence to check their citizenship status before running for parliament. Lets spend more tax money having a referendum for the benefit of these a*******.I don't really blame them as much as I blame the process that does not vet them properly. If you are an immigrant coming to Australia you have to do so much ruthless paperwork, yet when it comes to getting into high office we apparently don't even have a checkbox on a form somewhere |
Just read this last page, infi is making a great case for universal income.
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If you are an immigrant coming to Australia you have to do so much ruthless paperwork, yet when it comes to getting into high office we apparently don't even have a checkbox on a form somewhere High expectations for pollies there Trog! I should remind you Trump has the nuke codes. So who is keeping the poor person down? You. Moron. Heres a tldr on economic science since the 1980's/Reagonomics;. In 2005, T.D. Stanley showed that Card and Krueger's results could signify either publication bias or the absence of a minimum wage effect. However, using a different methodology, Stanley concluded that there is evidence of publication bias and that correction of this bias shows no relationship between the minimum wage and unemployment.[87] In 2008, Hristos Doucouliagos and T.D. Stanley conducted a similar meta-analysis of 64 U.S. studies on disemployment effects and concluded that Card and Krueger's initial claim of publication bias is still correct. Moreover, they concluded, "Once this publication selection is corrected, little or no evidence of a negative association between minimum wages and employment remains."[88] In 2013, a meta-analysis of 16 UK studies found that the minimum wage has no significant effects on employment.[89] In any case increasing minimum wage is in fact a tricky one because if done irresponsibly it does have measurable effects on the economy. I'm personally in favour of a larger increase in minimum wage because I think longer term effects of equality and human rights impacts society in more important (if less directly/immediately GDP-quantifiable) ways. Im also a fan of policies for tax credits for companies who hire more/increase $/hr of minimum wage employees, which would be especially attractive for larger companies. I think the ILO did a huge piece on it a while ago. Not that any of that matters though because thanks to PP/infi and the like Trumpism is coming to Australia and One Nation voters are convinced labour laws are socialist/nazi, or something. Yay Populist Nationalism! Remember kids, free trade and immigrants are SAD. |
^Lol
You mean the candy that she got for free out of the goodness of strangers' hearts? |
Heres a tldr on economic science since the 1980's/Reagonomics;. Jesus the did you hire your cherry picker on the minimum wage? |
You mean the candy that she got for free out of the goodness of strangers' hearts? Voluntary sharing is different to Wealth Confiscation. |
Yes, one of them is a realistic way to run a government and the other is a dumb libertarian pipedream
edit: that stupid Trump Jr tweet was ripped off from another viral thing going around recently saying the same thing. Basically another attempt to try to justify tax cuts under the guise of "tax == socialism". F*****g useless. |
For Gods Sake when is the Governor General going to act on this Circus ?
Labor and Labor-Lite wont call for an audit because they dont know how many are ineligible. Legislation may have been passed by dodgy MPs Terminal Turnbull may have been aware of ineligible Members and kept it secret. ITS A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS https://i.imgur.com/6c91KwD.jpg TICK TOCK https://i.imgur.com/JCGlyJr.jpg |
About the time 4chan was founded.
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could have been made in Russia. Hey while we are backslapping about how we are really super smart and all.
Here is an ad that attracted a fee on facebook of $53 dollars planted by the russians tm. https://static.politico.com/f2/b3/35dcae584875a3dc3f63da1eef0e/flag.png I don't know about you but I'd definitely vote for someone on the strength of that. here is another. They blew a staggering $8. https://static.politico.com/71/ba/8c72dd36489e862aee220357dc20/born-liberal.png How could anyone not vote right. They also planted an ad saying you can vote by tweeting a hashtag. <- that is a literal claim for voter suppression. The Russians. Suppressed the vote. By convincing people to tweet their vote. In a presidential election. I don't know about you guys, but I've made up my mind. Russian trolls elected trump. the evidence speaks for itself. We need to "patch this bug in our democracy" |
I don't know about you but I'd definitely vote for someone on the strength of that. Yet PP would've voted Hillary. |
PP I found a fun one for you and your friends.
https://i.redditmedia.com/MavEOD5hEV5yMMbG2sU5_0CxR_D3R_URicbfS0RM5DQ.jpg?w=528&s=dce4c18758dda4ce769ede63369aad1f Now, I know you find that hilarious because 'one of these things is not like the other!!' Great huh. Now, bear with me. Try to replace white with Muslim and Nazi with terrorist. Then you might realise, through taking the perspective of a Muslim(!), that the top post is satire. Fun hey!? |
Oh and heres a thing.
Foundations of Geopolitics, by Alexander Dugin In case you're not up to speed on the latest in international geopolitics; this stuff is basically Russias to-do list for the past few decades, and Trump, a populist isolationist racist-pandering nationalistic warmonger, is a big win for Russia. |
As well as the continuing fall of Trump's polling, the voters realised they've been had.
It's cute and all to think this has been an uprising against political correctness and 'post modernism' but im afraid not. |
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD Vas***#$!$
Happened to catch I think it was 97.3fm talking about PC GONE MAD in schools, because some schools were changing the baa baa black sheep rhyme to baa baa pink sheep or something. They kept being shocked and appalled that this could happen, kept asking why, WHY? Then after about a minute of this, a host was like.. 'well, when you think about it, it's not a good thing to be a 'black sheep'.. because it's a 'black' sheep..', 'yeah but I don't see what that has to do with the rhyme.....' 'well it has a black sheep in it..' 'but it's a sheep..' (awkward pause) You could almost, almost see the wheels of logic turning, turning at the slowest pace, before CUE ADS. But honestly Political Correctness, it's the downfall of society I tell you. downfall. of. society. someone should really do something about it. like maybe, ban political correctness in schools. yeah. and businesses. we should set up a Political Correctness Special Task Force to go into schools and businesses and investigate and punish people who do things in a politically correct way. thatll teach those f***** LOONY LEFTIES and PROTECT MY RIGHTS TO Because free speech and family values are important. Especially those that are against abortion, gay rights, or any major feminist objectives. |
Well done showing how much you care about the plight of muslims. I was so moved. What you should definitely do, while people are still being killed during a terrorist incident is start broadcasting how "not all muslims" to guard against the anti-muslim backlash that never happens. That really shows how much you care.
Yes Russia is getting everything it wants in the world right now through deft maneuvering (which is why in a covert op there are now three public bodies investigating Russian interference in the election). So phooks. Your dealing in outright conspiracy theory now well done. Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. And what they mean by that in practice is blowing 8 USD on a facebook ad from a computer in Cyprus and trying to convince people to vote on twitter. But hey you do what you have to convince yourself that only the stupid people didn't vote your way. Vash agrees with you so it's not a flying start. It's cute and all to think this has been an uprising against political correctness and 'post modernism' but im afraid not Well I'm afraid it is. This is an article printed in the Atlantic. Post modernism and identity politics are cul de sacs. |
Vash, why do you hate Trump so much?
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the anti-muslim backlash that never happens. Yeah nah you're right, racism doesn't exist. This is an article printed in the Atlantic Now here's a good one. So the argument is that the left looks at social/cultural issues so much, that it comes at the expense of looking at class issues, while at the same time, the left has an ' insouciant use of terms like ‘late capitalism’ suggesting that we can just wait for capitalism to collapse'. Because as we all know the acknowledgement that late stage capitalism has failed especially the poorest of us means we must become anarchist/apathetic revolutionaries? Or somehow at the same time the left does both too little and too much on inequality? The doubleplusthink is astounding. Then he criticises the left for identity politics, while also arguing its biggest failing is that the left is full of 'those privileged liberal elite and academics' who need to cater to 'the pure, common man'. The level of unashamed projection is unreal. This Left wants to preserve otherness rather than to ignore it … If the cultural Left insists on continuing its present strategy—on asking us to respect one another in our differences rather than asking us to cease noting those differences—then it will have to find a new way of creating a sense of commonality at the level of national politics. For only a rhetoric of commonality can forge a winning majority in national elections. A good summary of the right wing understanding of racism, and inability to have a superordinate national identity outside of 'f*** people who aren't like me!'. 'You want to fix or even acknowledge racism? That's racist. Me? I'm so non-racist, I don't even see race.' And of course, right at the bottom a video: 'populism will save the democrats!' f*****g LOL. Yes I would like to order one demagogue with fries please |
Happy Deny Democracy Day everyone But when your side publishes a full page ad, it's about freedom & democracy right? |
these guys advocate violence to promote an "anti-fascist" agenda. if they disagree with you, you will get bashed - so watch out!
they are not mentally well and should be avoided. don't go near the rallies or the universities. the best place to go to not be injured by anti-fascists during the protests is a job-network office. |
Leaving out extreme right groups Pauline Lol |
Malcolm Turnbull 4th September this year
In Question Time Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull called on Mr Shorten to release proof that he had renounced his UK citizenship. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-04/bill-shorten-presents-citizenship-papers-to-parliament/8870476 Malcolm Turnbull yesterday “What is an audit? Are we saying that we’d propose to have somebody interrogate each and every member and senator? Examine their genealogy?” The only body in Australia that could determine eligibility to sit under Section 44 of the Constitution is the High Court, Mr Turnbull said. “Nobody else can do that.” http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/government-minister-josh-frydenberg-may-be-dual-citizen-of-australia-and-hungary/news-story/99ac66dd1269dcf91e8cb60db2361ab5 ...and The Holocaust, so there ! what a great big Hypocritical Wanker Some journalist needs to grow some balls and ask Turnbull about this. Laurie Oakes needs to come out of retirement |
Oh phooks, well I didn't think you'd understand the argument because coherent argument isn't something you do.
Or somehow at the same time the left does both too little and too much on inequality? The doubleplusthink is astounding. There is no double think at all. The people most likely to scold others about privilege on the left are the most likely to have a s*** load of it. Policing speech is much cheaper then actually doing stuff. So they don't focus on inequality that is the point. They focus on largely irrelevant factors to avoid actually having to do s***. Hillary Clinton's campaign was the epitome of it. roping in JayZ to scold everyone about privilege. Because he is black. Just ignore the billion dollars he has in the bank. Focused too much on inequality. What a joke. Yeah nah you're right, racism doesn't exist. Being racist against muslims makes exactly as much sense as being racist against republicans phooks. You're a big time racist by that standard. Anyway. I look forward to your next triggered tirade. always entertaining. The key point of that article was that it was published in a heavily left leaning paper. Good to see that sailed straight over your pretty little head too. |
that's a really thought provoking video and helped me change my views on an important political matter
edit: does anyone think friendlyjordies is actually funny? legit asking. seen him touring local rsls and have not been inclined to participate |
Not really but he brings up alot of good points
Glad you got something out of it. |
That vash sure can run, not to bright though.
It's funny you should bring up friendlyjordies phooks. I wonder what his take on identity politics is. (tip, its basically the same as that Atlantic article.) Taggs, I don't agree with him on too much but I find him funny. He has a house party video which I get a chuckle out of. |
PP in all his wisdom thinks there is no systemic nor cultural oppression of minorities. The naivety is strong in this one. |
Vash in all his wisdom still hasn't figured out that correlation is not causation. This is classic idiot left wing thinking. Disparity therefore systematic society wide effort spent to achieve said disparity.
I'll take an NYT story on sentence disparity seriously when it places crime rates in the same article. |
Here's something with *6 times* the racial prison gap....
https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx Is the racial prison gap a thing? Yes. The gender prison gap however is far more significant. |
Is the racial prison gap a thing? Yes. The gender prison gap however is far more significant. What happens to the racial gap when you control for the gender gap? |
This is classic idiot left wing thinking. Meanwhile heres the kind of thinking from the right wing. https://i.imgur.com/DwSEAkR.jpg Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought. Analysis of facts, and applying policy based on science. The right wing provides a many dumbism from Hanson, Contrell, Abbott, Trump and countless others. It's a very emotional political philosophy. |
Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought. Post an emotive tweet while claiming rational thought is the provence of your side of politics. That post which doesn't contain a blatant internal contradiction is out there vash. Riddle me this Vash. Sentencing disparity against blacks = society is prejudiced against blacks. Rukh just gave evidence that the sentencing disparity against men in general is 6 times larger than against blacks. Is society prejudiced against men? If not why not. |
Post an emotive tweet while claiming rational thought is the provence of your side of politics. Yes... the emotive tweet is from the right side of politics. Are you confused? Sentencing disparity is but one facet of prejudice against blacks. Many other examples that im sure you know of. Men vs women is a different matter entirely, which is more because courts usually see women as being influenced by men to commit crimes, or they try to convince the court of such anyway. |
Federal Greens MP Adam Bandt has accused Immigration Minister Peter Dutton of being a "terrorist" over the treatment of 600 asylum seekers at the now-closed Manus Island detention centre. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/greens-terrorist-claim-puts-us-in-danger/news-story/ca5f17e4d4adb7df1491adfa131ff20c What do you call people who encourage poor ppl in 3rd world countries that are mysteriously wealthy enough to pay ppl smugglers thousands of US $$ to illegally trespass in to our great Country ? How would Boy Bandt feel about more children drowning as they travel here on leaky boats ? the greens are like a pre-teens Political Party. |
Are you confused? Do you know he thinks its emotive? how does a statement like that make you feel vash? Men vs women is a different matter entirely, which is more because courts usually see women as being influenced by men to commit crimes, or they try to convince the court of such anyway. Would that be you talking out of your ass? Because it reads like you talking out your ass. So just to sum that up for you real quick. You think a sentencing disparity against blacks is evidence of prejudice against blacks. but a much larger sentencing disparity against men isn't evidence of prejudice against men because men make women commit crime. You've said some stupid f*****g s*** vash, but that is right on up there. |
Yes. Women get less sentencing due to what i said. If you dont understand thats on you.
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PP, arguably the perfect human, and now expert on gender differences, finds that differences between male and female incarceration and victimisation rates are unfair, in particular instances with bias towards men and women for different crimes.
Continuing with his groundbreaking research agenda, he finds gender expectations define acceptable behaviours and attitudes for both females and males and this has measurable effects on the criminologocal and justice system. He coins his new research 'gender studies' and goes on to have a successful career as a postdoctoral researcher at a liberal University, founding the 'Gender Studies Institute of Australia'. |
His friends distance themselves from him, citing his 'f***** gay career' and 'f*****ty liberal arts degree'.
Meanwhile, friendships with his new peers at University (the Liberal Intelligentsia) cause him an identity crisis, and he starts questioning whether he is really part of the 'Republican Race' after all. |
Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought. You think a sentencing disparity against blacks is evidence of prejudice against blacks. but a much larger sentencing disparity against men isn't evidence of prejudice against men because men make women commit crime. Yes. Women get less sentencing due to what i said. If you dont understand thats on you. Delicious. I understand the sentence just fine vash. Not sure you do. I don't suppose you can back that up with any evidence can you? Phooks, arguably human, managed to deduce from that that I think society is prejudiced against men. I think rather than start 'gender studies' ill start an adult literacy program. It's mildly concerning you owe people a professional duty. |
Civilisation
civilization ˌsɪvɪlʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/Submit noun noun: civilisation the stage of human social development and organization which is considered most advanced. "the Victorians equated the railways with progress and civilization" synonyms: human development, advancement, progress, enlightenment, edification, culture, cultivation, refinement, sophistication "a higher stage of civilization" the process by which a society or place reaches an advanced stage of social development and organization. the society, culture, and way of life of a particular area. plural noun: civilizations; plural noun: civilisations "the great books of Western civilization" Savages savage ˈsavɪdʒ/Submit noun plural noun: savages 1. (chiefly in historical or literary contexts) a member of a people regarded as primitive and uncivilized. synonyms: barbarian, wild man, wild woman, primitive, heathen; cannibal "Sheila had expected mud huts and savages" 2. a brutal or vicious person. "the mother of one of the victims has described his assailants as savages" synonyms: brute, beast, monster, barbarian, ogre, demon, sadist, animal "the mother of one of the victims has described his assailants as savages" verb 3rd person present: savages 1. (especially of a dog or wild animal) attack ferociously and maul. "police are rounding up dogs after a girl was savaged" synonyms: maul, attack, tear to pieces, lacerate, claw, bite, mutilate, mangle; worry "11-year-old Kelly was savaged by two Rottweilers" |
jordies' predictable shtick is real cringe - he needs to change it up (buy new wigs). he reckons 20% of the budget is welfare. not according to parliament library. Key issuehttps://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliament if you work, you must give the government money. if you don't work, the govt gives you money. what a deal! and if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job, well you have to stay on welfare because the govt and unions says so. |
You might want to take a look at the graph in that article, 'social security and welfare' includes a lot more than those lazy f*****g dole bludgers. They make up a very small part of it. |
It's all welfare and it's paid for by a) a shrinking number of working people and b) borrowed money.
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So the elderly and disabled should go and get jobs then? One thing you need to keep in mind is that for some people jobs are actually hard. Not everyone has an impossible to fail position to parachute into their dad's office with when they fail at life in the real world like you do.
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if you knew anything about business you would know how risky it is when at that whims of banks and public policy. but you know nothing about business so make ad hominen attacks instead. SAD!
the disabled should work as best they can with assistance and adjustments. some profoundly disabled people need full government support. seniors should work as long as they are able. they should be proud to contribute and feel part of a valued team. my financial controller is 70 and she is a bloody legend, she loves life and loves work. the lame "i paid my taxes, i'm owed a pension" culture weakens our country. |
Yeah I don't know a whole lot about business but I know a bit about you. Like that time you thought employment was a choice between a $300 Newstart payment and a $600 minimum salary with nothing in between. You're obviously as thick as s***, how could you ever be trusted with anything important? And just lately you're still willfully ignorant of the fact that not everyone has an easy job to just fall into and that the majority of jobs are hard and unrewarding. But hey gotta keep that libertarian smoke screen active to mask your racism and homophobia don't ya?
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your racism and homophobia Bingo! |
Is it illegal to accept a full time job paying $450/week?
i treat fpot's use of "racism and homophobia" as an uncontrollable asperger's like condition. it should be ignored |
So you've chosen to ignore casual employment which makes up the vast majority of entry level positions, especially in the $300 to $600 bracket?
edit: and like dur, of course you're racist. You're a Trump supporter. I was actually surprised when I found out you were also a homophobe. I didn't think you were 100% terrible. |
Infi meets a workaholic 70 year old and suddenly thinks everyone that age wants to keep working after having worked their whole lives.
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Can a casual employee choose to work for $15/hour? No. The argument re minimum wage applies to hourly rates too. If a worker with low skills is only worth that much, they must instead go on welfare.
The govt bans people from getting a start, especially the poor, unskilled, those stuck in welfare traps, typical govt do-gooder ineptitude. So that the union award racket is entrenched. Fpot doesn't care about youth unemployment and elderly long-term unemployed. SAD. |
The govt bans people from getting a start, especially the poor, unskilled, those stuck in welfare traps, typical govt do-gooder ineptitude. The entire welfare process is about getting people into work or learning. Thankfully you haven't required it otherwise you'd know this instead of spouting what you've read in the daily telegraph or on a current affair. |
Why is it that dumb people always double down on the dumb?
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your racism and homophobia and like dur, of course you're racist. You're a Trump supporter. I was actually surprised when I found out you were also a homophobe. Why is it that dumb people always double down on the dumb? Yeah why is that? |
Stupid people turn things personal.
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infi for a hardcore libertarian you show a failing of understanding of labour markets. You also seem to think that the biggest motivation you can give someone is poverty, which is pretty sick.
If a worker with low skills is only worth that much, they must instead go on welfare. Disregarding your baseless assumption that giving poor people a 'living wage' (just above poverty?) decreases their motivation to work (an assumption that doesn't somehow apply to tax breaks or subsidies to businesses/the wealthy in order to incentivise 'investment and opportunities'..?), the value workers get paid is not based on the value they produce (that's socialism!), but based on employer offerings for different labour markets/award rates etc. In any case, obsessive cost cutting is good strategy for any one business, but it is bad for the national economy. Can you think of why? Second; if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job You seem to think that the value someone can produce is a choice, disregarding the mathematical impossibility of number of available jobs vs. number of unemployed/underemployed right now. Even if it was a choice, the value produced by a person at their workplace is determined moreso by the requirements and resources/demands of their job rather than their performance at it (unless they are brand new/toxic/bottom performer). Either way your logic would then look something like this I assume https://i.redd.it/oo9xn45yitlz.jpg At the core of the libertarian mindset is that businesses and markets should be free to set prices as they want, but what comes with that is that those businesses are under no obligations whatsoever to use that freedom for the betterment of their workers or society, which is one reason real wages have remained flat while business profits continue towards record profits over the last few decades. We do not live in a meritocracy. If you think we do because of your personal entrepreneurial success story, I would remind you that that's like a lottery winner telling everyone to just buy lottery tickets for a living. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a government assistance program like the New Enterprise Incentive Scheme. Is that just another wasteful handout or are entrepreneurs a superior class of human? Even if you disagree with all of the above infi, the price of labour is increasing and the price of automation/AI and robots in decreasing. Libertarianism is not our gateway out of this mess. |
Here's a post I made on FB in response to a question my (American) cousin asked related to minimum wage which is kinda relevant; he was asking along the broad lines of whether it's possible for us to come up with some sort of generic simple job anyone can do whenever they want to make enough money to live happily in the event they can't find the work they want to do. |
Your cousin could join the army, or clean floors at NASA, those things are big business over there. Maybe sell flags and eagles, they like them too. Just import them from China and sew the made in USA patches on, they will sell like hots cakes. Nationalistic inclusive deluded nation.
Here is an image for Vash (and all other Trump haters): https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DM2QyoJUIAAhhbq.jpg |
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/US_Wealth_Inequality_-_v2.png
Australian jobless poverty rates are at 53.5%, the second worst nation recorded by the OECD. The only jobs that are being created are part-time, and the unemployment rate is higher than what it was a few years ago. And because the wealth of the lower and middle class is tied up in real estate any rise in interest rates will probably mean the end of, you guessed it, not just our housing market. Is it the billionaires, multi-nationals and mega-rich who should answer to society? No, society does not own businesses, shareholders do! And we all know society owes its very existence to shareholders. Labour government, unions and labour laws never did anything right, and have really bad economic policy. Let's instead blame and punish those who cannot find work - those on welfare are responsible for everything. Tax avoidance and offshore havens? No, that's ridiculous spin cooked up by those bleeding heart lefties. People in poverty, now that's where my anger is. |
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Productivity_and_Real_Median_Family_Income_Growth_in_the_United_States.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Wealth_inequality_panel_-_v1.pnghttp://i.huffpost.com/gen/1359800/original.jpg
It's almost as if there is a reason Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights exists, or something Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests. |
And remember kids, those big-government advocates are wrong, debt BAD, austerity GOOD. (This propaganda brought to you by Rupert Murdoch).
Austerity in Australia: Yanis Varoufakis offers lessons from the eurozone. Why this penchant for austerity? |
So when paul keating spent 6 years lowering Australia's government spending from from 30% GDP to 25% and working to get rid of debt, it was to f*** the lower class and middle classes, gotcha.
I mean he and *everyone else* might contest that and point to the 25 straight years of low inflation growth and living standards among the highest on the planet. But the Labor treasurer was out to f*** the little man. Oh and please use graphs that don't end just after the GFC. |
Ah yes the Keating government, the pro-Asia pro-free trade, and pro-affirmative action government that introduced bills like the disability act to help disabled people get jobs. But f*** all that because really, the lower corporate tax rate is what we have to thank for getting out of the recession (a recession which in no way was part of a longer term business cycle with market corrections that had no long-term benefits whatsoever to, say, interest rates). What we should do, is keep lowering and lowering corporate tax rates because that magically increases GDP with no negative consequences whatsoever. Forget economic or political stability, infrastructure, worker skills or industry attractiveness. Low tax, now that is what drives an economy.
Just look how disgustingly HIGH our corporate tax rate is http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/8426034/data/corporate-tax-rates-around-the-world-data.jpg In fact, we should follow the trend of Ireland and the Cayman Islands and just lower the official corporate tax rate to 10%. Then we can become the World Leader in the Race to The Bottom. PP don't you wonder why modern day conservatives are isolationist? Protectionist? Because they have a 'f***-you-got-mine' attitude to international trade. We live in a shared world PP. Globalisation exists! Like it or not your fate is tied moreso to those Chinese factory workers than it is to Trump. This is why Russia really doesn't give a f*** about Australia outside of our US 'alliance'. Most importantly to your argument though, government expenditure is BAD, as it increases DEBT, and has absolutely no effect on the level of demand for goods and services in the economy. Oh wait no, it does. Fiscal austerity reduces demand for goods and services arising out of public sector activity and increases the public debt to GDP ratio. Production = demand for goods and services, austerity = downward pressure on production and in turn the growth of output and employment. Even if the interest rates payable goes down, this will have an opposite effect on the private sector/confidence if no one is buying. Do you think a $ spent by the government is somehow drastically different to the $ spent by consumers? Lower 'government' spending = lower spending = literally the opposite of economic 'growth'. Even if I was wrong, right wing rhetoric on austerity doesn't actually mean reduced spending and 'fixing the debt'. It never f*****g does. Fuel subsidy, private health insurance subsidy, carbon tax, corporate and capital gains tax cuts? If they wanted to fix the debt tomorrow they could. The bulls*** pandering about the 'debt' isn't about the f*****g debt. It's about “freeing” up markets. And in case you can't translate from everyday conservative dog whistling, this means a race to the bottom in both the labour market and on corporate tax rates. |
What I love most is that when someone speaks of equality on behalf of the poorest and most disadvantaged amongst us, it's communistic class warfare. But when business execs and billionaires come out about lower tax rates class warfare is never f***** brought up.
That's because 'small government-pro-market' types like PP, Nmag and infi have been fed the bulls*** excuses that neoliberal policy increases productivity which leads to better pay for workers and better outcomes for society. Which it doesn't. The increases in productivity haven't 'trickled down' to the rest of society in over 35 years. Which is probably what I love about your Keating example the most PP. You know how Keating saved Australia? What the f*** do you think he saved us from? The neoliberal policies of the 80s lead to the deepest modern recession Australia has ever seen - beating the more recent geat recession. Somehow small government pro market always works, so long as you ignore all the times it doesn’t. Are there any other failings of neoliberal policy? Lets see, poorer infrastructure which is still under attack by the right, housing affordability, GFC, oh and you know, not too big of a deal but just the end of the f*****g world. |
Can you believe the greens want to regulate a "business environment that encourages businesses and governments to fulfil their corporate, social and environmental responsibilities"? Those f***** commies don't even know how to run a business. Not least a hugely successful business. Not like Trump does.
This type of left wing over-regulation is totalitarian. Don't they realise Hitler was a socialist? Why else would the Nazis name themselves the National Socialist German Workers' Party? You can't really say the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is anything but democratic. |
I think Phooks has discovered something with his charts.
Wealthy people have been getting wealthier with the more Socialism we have. Socialism has Failed. (well if you are poor that is) Hang on a minute, maybe thats why Limousine Liberals promote it ? Because it makes them Wealthier. |
WTF just happened? I pointed out that the greatest treasurer Labor has ever produced had a very specific target for government spending (and was generally neo-liberal in his approach), and phooks got triggered. Cause he does. Australia had a recession in 1990. It has been targeting government spending of around 25% of GPD and hasn't had one since. |
It's in the affluent interest to open borders. It increases population, helps keep wages lower.
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I think Phooks has discovered something with his charts.I think you missed the bit about the second huge recent revelation about wealthy people skipping the "social" part of "socialism" by offshoring their wealth and evading taxes. You say some pretty incredible things but this could be the first time in history where someone has said socialism is responsible for making people too rich. Nice one! |
How could someone be left wing, and support increased competition for themselves in:You say "increased competition", they say "increased cooperation". It's really quite easy to explain. I vote we stop using terms 'left' and 'right' in political discussions. I am thinking about blocking them client side in a few places to see what it does to the overall level of visible political discourse. I think the main effect will be to filter out the Russian troll conversations, and those indistinguishable from same from clueless extremists on both sides. I can't think of a single reasonable conversation I've had recently where those terms (and maybe 'liberal' and 'conservative', and I guess while I'm at it, 'libtard' and 'rwnj'). |
interesting article from BBC this morning looking at some famour car racer guy's tax avoidance schemes as revealed in the latest whatever papers leak.
Just a reminder that the enemy is really accountants and tax lawyers and the politicians they trick into passing complex tax law |
Just a reminder that the enemy is really accountants and tax lawyers and the politicians they trick into passing complex tax law This guys website has a few things on the big 4 accounting firms being more of a risk to the economy than bankers. https://www.michaelwest.com.au/bonfire-of-the-big- https://www.michaelwest.com.au/pwc-gives-bludgers- |
You say "increased competition", they say "increased cooperation". It's really quite easy to explain. Can someone explain how it's not increased competition please? |
Can someone explain how it's not increased competition please?that's not what I said, but Prisoner's dilemma is kind of where I'm going with this. i.e., you're better off accepting a small increase in competition if it results in generally greater equality for everyone, because the long term result of competition at the expense of cooperation is, surprise surprise, a bad outcome for everyone except a few people at the really pointy end. (This has been demonstrated many times in history.) Arguably you have the right as an Australian to say "well f*** the rest of the world I only care about Australians and immigrants can go f*** themselves", but at least be honest about it. I guess I'd just say, bear in mind there are always going to be a lot of people on your "side" (whatever that is) that depend on immigration to keep their businesses and lives afloat in some way, whether or not they realise it. |
My turn to post drunk. What's happening in Manus is some unspeakable bulls***. The sort of thing people need to pay attention to.
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hey how can we make this really important issue partisan so we can stop talking about solving it and instead spend all our time finger pointing in the most divisive way possible
don't worry, the russians have it covered already edit: I'm going to bookmark this response because I think it will come in handy |
My turn to post drunk. What's happening in Manus is some unspeakable bulls***. The sort of thing people need to pay attention to. I know right? It's almost as though the international laws around first country of asylum - the laws tthat say that to be eligible for asylum you must claim it in the first country you pass through that it is available in - was ignored! Hell, from the way people are supposedly being treated on Manus, you'd think guards were going around with sticks beating others, and withholding food from them to starve them to death... wait, no, that's the people living there doing that. Hm. Wait so if I rock up to another country and treat myself and others like s*** to make for awesome media coverage, can around get around their immigration laws? For any country I want? |
I stopped reading where it claimed the big 4 self insure and that this was some sort of risk to the global economy. That is patently and demonstrably incorrect, big 4 have plenty of insurances in place including professional indemnity insurance. In fact, many clients require this before engaging them.
Not surprised though, that's the same Michael West who when writing about the "fair" amount of tax companies pay was unable to distinguish or understand the difference between accounting profit and taxable income in previous articles some time back. |
I stopped reading where it claimed the big 4 self insure and that this was some sort of risk to the global economy. That is patently and demonstrably incorrect, big 4 have plenty of insurances in place including professional indemnity insurance. In fact, many clients require this before engaging them.So I thought the insurance comment was quite interesting because I'm currently working on a project in the insurance industry & now have more than a passing familiarity with it - so I thought it was extremely vague because [now I know!] there are sooooo many different types of insurance in different areas. I find it staggeringly hard to believe they have no insurance, but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations. But the article does not go into any more detail about what they claim they're self-insuring. |
The biggest wealth transfer in modern history has occurred courtesy of stimulus and bank bailouts which were supposed to be for the people by big-government left-wing governments. The banks scared everyone, the govermments got spooked by a potential depression and mass unemployment, throw out helicopter money to prop up weak economies and the rich made a killing. It would have been far more beneficial (for workers) to allow the economy to reset, so that new industries would sprout faster.
Keep it up with the government intervention and the rich will get richer even faster than they already are. Four Corners only had time to scratch the surface but national governments can't hope to stop this kind of off shoring unless they unite in multinational agreements to sanction non-complying countries. This already occurs in relation to certain ex-tax havens e.g. Switzerland but others simply do not care if they are cut off, because they use half way (half-compliant) countries to launder their money. Australia could easily come down harder on domestically generated revenue by refusing off shore deductions (IP charges or non arms length interest charges). The government just needs to grow a set. The recently enacted Multinational Anti-Avoidance Law barely starts to address tax avoidance by Multinats. |
but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations. Even if they do, it doesn't follow they are threat to the global economy as a result. If its appropriately managed it would still serve its purpose. |
trog with the sly CBA advertising
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I don't agree with captialism, monarchism, socialism, communism etc i think we need to design a new society :D with rational ethics and based on truth.
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I find it staggeringly hard to believe they have no insurance, but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations. But the article does not go into any more detail about what they claim they're self-insuring. Running a business involves taking on a measure of risk in order to earn a return. Every business “self-insures” some (actually most) aspects of their operations because if you were able to perfectly insure every risk a business was exposed to then it logically follows you’re exposed to zero risk. If you can earn a return on a risk free operation that’s what’s known as arbitrage and you would (and should!) do as much of that activity as you possibly could (i.e. infinity) until you can’t earn a return anymore. Arbitrage is more commonly seen as a finance concept but this example where a business could perfectly insure every risk and still earn a return would be a physical/business sort of arbitrage. Obviously that’s a silly and unrealistic scenario but I raised it just to make the point that all businesses predominantly “self-insure” risks, or bear risk, in order to go about their core business and earn a return. Self-insurance (i.e. bearing risk) in and of itself is a totally normal, and fundamentally necessary, part of business. The reason I raised professional indemnity insurance in particular in my previous post is that is the sort of insurance that protects professionals when the results of advice they give in a professional context results in them being involved in litigation. A related insurance is public liability which protects against being found liable for negligence or providing negligent advice. As you might imagine, big 4 firms purchase significant amounts of these sorts of insurance to protect against these risks. Many clients insist on seeing evidence of these policies being in place such as current insurance certificates before engaging big 4 firms for services. Thus when the article redhat linked claims that the big 4 pose a global financial risk because they could be sued for taxation advice they give and that they would collapse because they don’t insure against this risk I pointed out that this is not correct. |
Obviously that’s a silly and unrealistic scenario but I raised it just to make the point that all businesses predominantly “self-insure” risks, or bear risk, in order to go about their core business and earn a return. Self-insurance (i.e. bearing risk) in and of itself is a totally normal, and fundamentally necessary, part of business.Right; in the context of the article, I assumed "self-insure" meant actually to have an internal insurance group that literally does risk analysis and applies it as a cost centre to their operations - this seems like the kind of thing a giant well organised megacorp that specialises in finance would do. But your explanation makes more sense & I guess is way more likely. Many clients insist on seeing evidence of these policies being in place such as current insurance certificates before engaging big 4 firms for services.Even at the small scale I've operated this has been a requirement on some contracts I've worked on. I am more interested in the type of insurance I'm working on at the moment - trade credit insurance. I suspect it's less of a big deal for big-4 types because they can probably more effectively do due diligence before engaging so risk of non-payment is lower, but I'm sure it still happens. Almost certainly though a failure here wouldn't trigger the collapse of one of them, let alone all of them. edit: the biggest threat to the big 4 is fintech/regtech and I hope they all go out of business together, like I do for all accountants. Sorry accountant friends but machines should be doing my tax automatically and I never should have to think about it ever. |
I believe there are naive, well meaning people who live in regions relatively unaffected by the social challenges mass immigration (from 3rd world particularly) can have on society.
Save the trees! |
You are conflating so many issues in your post though dude. You're implying there's just one group of clueless morons who want immigration without realising that it means they're going to be competing for jobs. The reality is though there are many pro immigration groups, with their own agendas or beliefs:
- the Birkenstock wearing hippie clueless commie socialist pinkos who think we should just let in anyone because hey, that's just like, their opinion, man - the globally conscious well off person who realises how f*****g lucky they are who thinks maybe we can let a few people who are fleeing death squads from their own country and bombs that we are at the very least culpable in dropping on their children, because it's just the human thing to do - economists and related types that look at population growth as an interesting number on a spreadsheet and realise that without immigration our population will decline - small business owners and technology companies trying to carve out a new niche or build a new market and requiring skills that simply do not exist at all in Australia - our farms and our billionaire miner class who desperately need more workers (often seasonal) because it's hard to find Australians to do that kind of work On the other side what do we have? - Hypocritical free market extremists who make a lot of noise about the importance of competition in solving all the world's problems, except in this case - Hypocritical libertarians who believe that liberty should only apply to people who happened to immigrate to their country in one specific time window several hundred years ago and everyone else can go f*** themselves - People terrified of religious extremist terrorists, despite the statistically clear fact that they are about a billion times more likely to die in their car on the way to work in the morning - Racists - People who claim not to be racists but don't want immigration because of various strawmen that ultimately resolve into one of the above classes, usually racism or some other form of generally clueless bigotry edit: I should say, I probably fall into several of these groups to various levels, including some of the negative ones, and I suspect most people are the same Fwiw "low-skilled imports", as you sneeringly and condescendingly call them, are the minority of the immigration that we get (last I checked I think something like 70% of immigrants to Australia are on a skilled migration path). |
- People terrified of religious extremist terrorists, despite the statistically clear fact that they are about a billion times more likely to die in their car on the way to work in the morning I mean I don't know why everyone got so worked up about shooting down MH17, doesn't everyone know you're much more likely to die falling down stairs than be deliberately shot down in a civilian aircraft? I could shoot down 50 more and it would still be much less likely than death by falling down stairs so no biggy right?. |
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/ Even the Greensâ traditional enemies in the right-wing press now say so. To cite but one of many recent examples, a piece in The Australian last week rather begrudgingly acknowledged the Greens as the only party to have acted âhonourablyâ in the matter. Greens to the rightwing media be all like: https://media1.tenor.com/images/9bd068fb30734ffb332b1e53005ae19a/tenor.gif Jesus, auspol even more is hilariously bad than usual atm. Is any meaningful legislation going to be passed before xmas? |
Hey nMag, I get the impression you have some solid schizoid features, do you?
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Yep Redhat, the way the Greens handled the citizenship mess deserves respect.
It just shows they are more deserving of leading us than many in Government. When a politician doesn't cling onto power scratching & screaming, it's telling. |
it's great when the govt doesn't pass laws - it means less s*** ideas to raise taxes for.
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There are other ways of increasing population. We are offering too much free stuff, and thus attract people who seek free stuff.
Tollaz0r!, personal comments like that are an indication that the 'triggering' you are experiencing is inhibiting your ability to articulate. |
Tollaz0r!, personal comments like that are an indication that the 'triggering' you are experiencing is inhibiting your ability to articulate. i don't think it was a personal attack so much as an observation of your c***ish posting |
Another resorting to personal comments. I'll tone things down, so they are less triggering.
So, who's been to a protest this year? or held a placard and chanted something? Anyone scaled a building? |
yes you are the king of triggering people
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So, who's been to a protest this year? or held a placard and chanted something? Anyone scaled a building? I think the last rally I went to was last year. It was to protest the nsw gov's war on cyclists. Was tempted to go to the vote yes rally but it rained and I'm a fair weather activist. |
Oh phooks.
Would you like me to respond so you can trigger yourself? Marx said capitalism was killing itself in 1830. Its 2017, so that means there is only 13 years to go until he has been consistently wrong for 200 straight years. |
yeah lol activists are dumb. also learning
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yeah lol activists are dumb. also learning oh follow that up with "what are universal human rights". No please inform me what universal human rights are and what has been marxism's contribution to them phooks? (hint it has been how to violate them as egregiously as possible) you know because activists aren't dumb or something. hey here is something for you to trigger yourself over. Keating introduced the disability discrimination act with the express purpose of getting disabled people off welfare. It was overtly driven by achieving budget savings. |
awesome work posting videos. beats actually articulating a point.
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PP is triggered hard by Phooks posts lol.
awesome work posting videos. beats actually articulating a point. Certainly beats the quality of your posts |
another absolutely bullseye, on fire.
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Indigenous rights, gender equality, poverty reduction, corporate transparency, LGBTI+ rights, veganism, environmental activism, unionisation, wage redistribution, arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies, or literally any other policy held by the greens? nah, those loony lefties have it all wrong.
What we really need is LESS civil disobedience and rubble rousers. LESS government spending (especially in recession). MORE protection against those illiegals comin from the boats. priority #1 right there. military is our best option . why have manus at all? just turn the boats away. their responsibility. We need to go back to the better times. When men were real men, able to earn what they deserved, and women were real women, away from these radical gender theory types coming for our children under the guise of 'anti-bullying programs'. How can a boy be a girl anyway? it's against traditional values aka the bible(tm). Anyway like I always say I'm proud to be white #whitelivesmatter |
that's a fairly incoherent set of values you have espoused. the only thread to it is (what a surprise!): identity politics. you sound just like a (what a surprise) generally disgruntled unemployed protestor.
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So you accuse the only policy-relevant post in the last 20 posts of identity politics, then attack me based on an imagined identity? Boy I hope you're trolling or stupid.
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Let me guess: you think the solution to all the woes you mentioned is more laws, bigger government, more social programs and payments and more taxes on the rich.
I think you left out Islamaphobia. Sorry I used "left" trog. |
So you accuse the only policy-relevant post in the last 20 posts of identity politics Gee I hope you're talking about this Keating introduced the disability discrimination act with the express purpose of getting disabled people off welfare. It was overtly driven by achieving budget savings. Because that was specific policy, with a clear explanation of the philosophy underpinning it. this on the other hand. Indigenous rights, gender equality, poverty reduction, corporate transparency, LGBTI+ rights, veganism, environmental activism, unionisation, wage redistribution, arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies, or literally any other policy held by the greens? nah, those loony lefties have it all wrong. Is you drinking hoping for attention again. or in short phooks got triggered. again. You keep on plugging vash. Here is another oneline triggering for you phooks. away from these radical gender theory types coming for our children under the guise of 'anti-bullying programs'. How can a boy be a girl anyway? it's against traditional values aka the bible(tm). Never trump newspaper the economist expresses concern the current state of the debate around transgender people throws children under the bus. Notes clinicians who say the best course of action is to try to get children to accept their biological sex are at risk of losing their job. |
The disability discrimination Act was not austerity.
The biggest issue trans children have to go through is the toxic attitudes towards gender dysphoria held by people like you clinicians who say the best course of action is to try to get children to accept their biological sex are at risk of losing their job. Jeeze I dunno probably because giving broad, sweeping advice to millions of people disregarding individual context on a hotly politicised issue is unbelievably unethical and stupid? |
Let me guess: you think the solution to all the woes you mentioned is more laws, bigger government, more social programs and payments and more taxes on the rich. Thanks Trump. I don't know where you get this anti-laws bulls*** from, as if laws and regulations or any standards of behaviour at all are evil, but guess what whether you like it or not A) government exists and paying taxes is for the good of society (& more accurately monetary policy) and B) in the face of falling consumer confidence and a failing economy the only thing that helps is stimulation and investment aka govt spending. In a neoliberal market to maximise growth govt spending would ideally follow business cycles |
The disability discrimination Act was not austerity. Keating implemented it and he says otherwise. So yeah it was. Keating's attitude was people who can be working should be and the government should support that and not cut cheques just because. Go look at the wiki article, or read his biographies. He was unequivocal.
You don't know my attitude toward trans children. Jeeze I dunno probably because giving broad, sweeping advice to millions of people disregarding individual context on a hotly politicised issue is unbelievably unethical and stupid? So I guess the fact that the overwhelming body of evidence suggesting that gender dysphoric children desist doesn't enter into it. Anyway, you should line up some youtube videos. It's all you've got. |
that's a fairly incoherent set of values you have espoused. the only thread to it is (what a surprise!): identity politics. you sound just like a (what a surprise) generally disgruntled unemployed protestor.out of interest, how does 'identity politics' fit into 'arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies'? When the only tool you have is a hammer, etc. Everything is 'identity politics' to some degree. I hope the irony of you complaining about 'identity politics' after steadfastly and blindly supporting the Liberals for so many years regardless of their position (until recent times when they've become a international laughing stock) is not lost on you! |
how does identity politics' fit into 'arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies' Oh good so it was a fairly incoherent set of values I wonder if we can get phooks to admit he is suffering cognitive dissonance and whats the word, I think you used 'sneeringly' (though I think I like 'lets put on our condescending c*** pants') call that progress. |
blindly supporting the Liberals for so many years I supported them while they were consistent with my values. Then I didn't support them when they didn't... that's called evaluating merits. Just like you became a Greens voter. |
I supported them while they were consistent with my values. Then I didn't support them when they didn't... that's called evaluating merits. Just like you became a Greens voter.but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon* |
but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon*This would assume infi is capable of change. |
but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon* both - I value strong IR laws and balanced budgets (welfare cuts etc). Once Libs stopped down that path they lost me. So I guess a bit of both. |
Don't forget your only other value infi, 'free speech'. Bet you're a real inspirational leader in your workplace with such egalitarian views |
One day the Greens might run the country and fix things.
lol |
Phooks has managed to close the loop. He can just feed himself one line and be triggered. I hope you washed your hand after that phooks.
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Yeah, i can identify with infi's sentiment toward the Liberal Party - i too was once fairly pro-Liberal, but when they walked away from the Howard-style policies (middle class welfare, future fund, gun laws, strong aus manufacturing) and turn to economic globalisation, weak leadership and the watering down of medicare
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political discourse with memes, now at the easy-to-digest 4th grade reading level
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BfSk-kjP0YQ/UenR4yN5z2I/AAAAAAAAEmA/mVhiIJisnzE/s1600/carlin.jpg |
now at the easy-to-digest 4th grade reading level You sure you're going to be able to handle it then? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwzIfO9CAAACVh6.jpg I know right. I mean I can't see why aboriginal people get so worked up about land rights. Their connection to the land is just a genetic accident... |
This document was interesting to read over, it's for NSW. Would be interesting to see the Qld and Vic versions: |
I can't see why aboriginal people get so worked up about land rights You can't? Shocking. I'm shocked. It's definitely just their frenzied national pride (Ala those right wing nutters). Aboriginals are a single nation, right? |
PP/Nmag/infi, what are your opinions on vaccines?
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Oh hey it's that pesky far left-wing lobbying group, the Australian Medical Association, coming to impose their crazy political views on everyone. Stupid doctors.
"It is our responsibility as a nation with a strong human rights record to ensure that we look after the health and wellbeing of these men, and provide them with safe and hygienic living conditions." Government spokesmen were not immediately available for comment. Australia's immigration policy, under which it refuses to allow asylum seekers arriving by boat to reach its shores, has been heavily criticised by the United Nations and human rights groupshttps://scontent.fbne4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23659223_10214855363601730_6810742798342879377_n.jpg?oh=48709db55dfe44b64abdf34357a185db&oe=5AA65D24 |
I've got no problem with vaccines. I do have a problem with undocumented unauthorised arrivals and people smugglers. Australia should exit the Refugee convention.
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Remember when you used to say the concentration camps were okay because at least the detainees were being fed, watered and sheltered? Now that isn't happening anymore, would you say you are more happy with the concentration camps or less happy with them?
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The visitors can leave at any time. The replacement housing is ready for them. Or they can go home and ask for a refund from their smuggler.
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You can't? Shocking. I'm shocked. It's definitely just their frenzied national pride (Ala those right wing nutters). yeah ok so I guess you don't know what the kulin nation is. Shocking. Well not that shocking. But look right wing nutters nationalism bad, aboriginal nationalism good. Keep it at 4th grade phooks. "It is our responsibility as a nation with a strong human rights record to ensure that we look after the health and wellbeing of these men, and provide them with safe and hygienic living conditions." No they can't be left wing, they think there is such a thing as national responsibility. Its like reading Stalin, Hilter and Goebbels all at the same time. |
Refugees and homo marriage is all well and good, but can anyone explain proposed tax cuts against this?
https://i.imgur.com/jWl3Ug2.png I'm all for tax cuts, money is fun, but don't we have to pay for the debt at some time? Isn't this just Government spending dressed up as tax relief? |
I guess you would have to ask Anna the same question. When will the debt be paid. Governments are addicted to debt.
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Pretty sure debt only grew under campbell newman as well. And that was after he booted all those people out of jobs.
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^ironic for someone whose attitudes towards debt is 'debt is bad'
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Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. |
$71b debt is good? It's costing Qld $1.7b per year. $1.7b is one whole Labor Qld Health payroll debacle. Probably not the best value for money argument.
So pitch me the alternative argument. What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b). All that Beattie, Bligh, Palaszczuk waste... you know what happens when interest rates go up? Ourt cost of borrowing already up due to loss of AAA credit rating. We have no hope of ever paying it back. NSW has no debt. Hog: a few thoughts on federal govt debt: 1. Senate blocks budget cuts 2. NDIS massive impost 3. Gonski unfunded 4. Submarines are they thinking 5. Offshore detention thankfully shrinking due to Soverewign Borders. 6. Personal home should be part of pension means testing. Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed. (Nor Turnbull's dumb personal tax cuts thought bubble, but the top tax rate definitely needs to be pushed out or reduced - to lose half your income after $180,00 is a joke). Fixing the Federal govt debt will be way easier than Qld repaying $81b! (because Feds have taxation powers) |
Politics aside (I don't think Labor or Liberal will make an appreciable difference to our debt) I agree that it's getting to scary levels. What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b).Last I looked (it has been a while) I thought Qld was doing OK with surpluses in the last couple budgets - (e.g., http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-13/queensland-b Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed.who are you and what have you done with infi |
i am all for proposed middle income tax cuts for myself and my family.
should be more of it! |
actually it would be nice to get another stimulus!
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who are you and what have you done with infi To me, there is not much point to company tax, because tax gets paid by the real person or trust which inevitably receives the dividends from a company. Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely but I don't see an argument in the short term to reduce it. Because it is just fiddling with the amount of dividends retirees get in their super fund. I would much rather stronger enforcement of multinational companies who pay f*** all while enjoying our stellar legal and governance systems. Our company tax rate is worth it. Once the structural deficit Labor created has been rectified taxes should go lower, starting with the top rate which is f*****g f*****g ridiculous. |
To me, there is not much point to company tax, because tax gets paid by the real person or trust which inevitably receives the dividends from a company. Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely but I don't see an argument in the short term to reduce it. Because it is just fiddling with the amount of dividends retirees get in their super fund.I have been thinking along similar lines recently too. I haven't thought the whole way through it but abolishing company tax in favour of slightly increased taxes elsewhere seems preferable to me. I am all about simplicity these days. I would much rather stronger enforcement of multinational companies who pay f*** all while enjoying our stellar legal and governance systems. Our company tax rate is worth it.. Wholeheartedly agree, not sure how big a deal it is in Aus but I'm sure it's a factor. But short of massive international cooperation on this issue the likes of which the world has never seen (presumably because it's actively fought against by entrenched moneyed interests). Once the structural deficit Labor created has been rectified taxes should go lower, starting with the top rate which is f*****g f*****g ridiculous.I guess the top rate doesn't bother me because it needs to be higher at the pointy end. I'd be interested in your suggested/preferred tax brackets though. |
30% up to $350k
40% after, maybe 35% I like the US tax rates. |
$71b debt is good? It's costing Qld $1.7b per year. $1.7b is one whole Labor Qld Health payroll debacle. Probably not the best value for money argument. Just have a housing boom and collect 4.5% on every million dollar s***box. Simple! Then you can have some policies like this! http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-20/nsw-governme The greens $1 public transport policy is truly the crackpot thing though. |
starting with the top rate which is f*****g f*****g ridiculous. nah, its fine. and im super interested in something like that for qld. id quite happily not pay rego to use tolls. (now that my work is beyond a tolled road) |
30% up to $350kyou hate government debt, but you like the US tax rates? thoughtful face edit: btw this infographic from NYTimes on the proposed Republican tax cut bill is pretty well done. They will lead to an addition $1.4 trillion with a t dollars deficit according to projections. Maybe if they axed their biggest social welfare programme - the military - they could start reducing it. |
they are owned by Transurban you hate government debt, but you like the US tax rates? thoughtful face sure it is very doable with massive reductions to government spending. cut middle class welfare, tighten eligibility for other welfare, slash public service. so much waste. even worse in America. whole departments can be abolished and no one would notice. in Australia we couild easily delete the federal departments of health and education who dont employee a single teacher or doctor in front line work (there are plenty sipping coffee in canberra no doubt). |
Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely I am more and more convinced you are a troll account |
I wonder if Trump came to Australia how long it would take for infi to suck him off
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in Australia we couild easily delete the federal departments of health and education who dont employee a single teacher or doctor in front line work (there are plenty sipping coffee in canberra no doubt).Let me guess: the states should look after it? |
I am more and more convinced you are a troll accountIf so, he's been 'trolling' on qgl for about the same time as you've been alive |
Hey that's great, maybe his generation can afford a house.
Probably not though. Because you know; taxes. Just like poor people, taxes are to blame for everything in infiland. Oh hardware did you know companies cannot spend money on consumption? They are unable to buy things. Like, bananas? Nup companies can't buy em. Crazy |
you are rambling, you sound like a generally disaffected whinger.
Oh hardware did you know companies cannot spend money on consumption? They are unable to buy things. Like, bananas? Nup companies can't buy em. Crazy that is correct! companies buy business inputs (which are deductions). if something is not an allowable deduction it will then form part of the profit that must be distributed by dividends to shareholders, who then use it for consumption (holidays, houses, boats, hairdos, psychotherapy *cough*). you seem partially intelligent but quite often do not understand basic concepts. f***en bananas... what a head. |
Sigh here we go.
Keep attacking an imagined identity. For someone who hates identity politics you sure rely on it a lot. consumption Q: do businesses consume? A: infi is stupid See, at least with PP I can have arguements, albeit barbed, that differ on idealogical bases because I can tell he wants the world to change in some way. You however are so pants-on-head stupid that is not worth talking to you about even the most basic of concepts. You think business activity should not be taxed not because, say, they don't form a separate legal entity with rights and responsibilities to society over and above shareholders, which they do, but because they 'dont consume' since they get taxed on net profits? And shareholders consume through dividends? Do you walk backwards too? You advocate for poverty for your fellow man, you want military action against refugees and would harm our relations with strategic allies, you want tax cuts for only the richest. It would take years of formal education to fix your stupidity and years moreso to untwist your skewed, backwardsly-justified views. |
You think business activity should not be taxed not because, say, they don't form a separate legal entity with rights and responsibilities to society over and above shareholders, which they do, but because they 'dont consume' since they get taxed on net profits? And shareholders consume through dividends? Many countries have very low or nil taxation rates. They rely on CONSUMPTION taxes. Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police. Companies create economic activity which in turn creates personal income via employment and consumption activity. Did you know that companies don't pay GST? yes they get input tax credits. I wonder why that is? It's because they don't consume goods (in economic terms you can either consume, invest or save). Similarly, private investors get tax credits for all the taxed dividends they receive, because the only real taxpayer is a real person. This applies well with domestic companies and shareholders. Multinats need to pay their fair share before they send their profits of into the double dutch irish sandwich. Good work on the dictionary thing, you almost won the internet. I dont advocate povertry - I think the welfare has destroyed the sense of community and charity, and increased reliance on the government like a bunch of seagulls. I dont agree with military action against refugees. I support a strong border force and repudiation of people smuggling which has killed so many people try to to enter out shores. We should leave the refugees convention because it is abused by organised people smugglers. Force must be used when people do not comply with these policies. Australina is in charge of its own borders, not the UN. Dont even know what you mean re strategic allies. I think the highest tax rate should be lower. I don't think it is fair for people to be paying half of their income to fund the state. Find another way. I don't think our role in life is to work to the have half of it stolen. Thaty is notr fair, people generally have a right to hold onto what is theirs. You are very disaffected, you sound like other people owe you a living and enjoy having a whinge (well it is an Australian sport). I want to hear more about how you took some entrepeneurial financial risks and made a lot of money for yourself. Government should not be running our lives and gobbling aup our hard earned dollars. It should take a back seat and find ways to take less of our money. |
Not going to lie, infi sounds like he knows what he is talking about regarding company tax thing and phooks is just triggering without fully understanding.
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It's basic economics that the incidence of company taxation necessarily falls on either shareholders, labour or consumers. Generally all 3 in differing proportions depending on the company, industry, labour market conditions, price elasticity of products it produces, etc. The burden of any given tax often falls on a different entity than the entity with the legal liability to pay the tax.
Infi is right, companies don't pay tax - people do. Phooks is spazzing out like he always does without even giving infi the benefit of the doubt and trying to actually engage with him. |
and here come's the 'carbon tax increased my electricity prices' crowd with more infinite wisdom
Many countries have very low or nil taxation rates Yes they do, quite like that 'double dutch irish sandwich' you hate, this is why tax havens exist in the first place. it's also why us lowering our own corporate tax rate won't work like it did for Ireland (see; race to the bottom) Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police taxes are evil Companies create economic activity which in turn creates personal income via employment and consumption activity All hail the source of all economic activity - companies. Individuals? Public sector? Education? International programs? Industry bodies? NFPs? No, it's companies. Not only are companies the one and only font of all economic activity, but the gracious providers of employment too. companies do no wrong really. oh and companies do NOT consume nor invest in their activities Did you know that companies don't pay GST? yes they get input tax credits. for the things they CONSUME. dear lord companies with a turnover over 80k/year have to register for gst. this means they charge 10% for tax on their goods and services input tax credits are for G&S companies buy with GST included. because they already have gst through their own business. does your company not earn above 80k/yr infi? or is that just what you get your cheap accountant to tell the evil tax man when you dodge tax? the only real taxpayer is a real person unless that person owns businesses, business which are completely separate legal entities to that person. legal entities that have to pay tax. but please tell us all about your wide investment portfolio oh dividend master It's basic economics that the incidence of company taxation necessarily falls on either shareholders, labour or consumers Tax burden, the banner of regressive austerity policies everywhere. What is basic economics is that in a market economy businesses exist to make a profit and will pay the lowest wages possible according to the exact same factors you correctly outlined no matter what, which is basic business strategy. Lowering business taxes does not increase wages. You've been fed typical right wing propaganda that taxes are evil because they hurt profits and don't work because businesses will recoup them through you, which is not the case for the majority of industries alongside existing market distortions like minimum wage (see; keeping people out of poverty) and guess what, even if it was, that's often not a bad thing when it's on something like carbon tax because it can drive innovation towards more sustainable and other job-creating industries and, oh i don't know, stops the end of the f*****g world due to human-caused climate change |
Some people wear their angry pants every morning. No point getting mad at facts.
Education, NFPs, NGOs don't pay tax either Phooks. But their employees do. Kind of reinforces the point the latter non human entities don't really pay (income) tax in the end. They pay a variety of other indirect taxes. I'm going to blow your mind now: trusts don't pay tax either. The profits of a trust must be distributed and the beneficiaries pay the tax. I am sensing a theme here.... |
Tax burden, the banner of regressive austerity policies everywhere. Tax burden, or tax incidence in economics jargon, is simply the concept that I explained earlier that the entity that bears the economic impact of a tax may not necessarily be the same entity that has the legal obligation to pay the tax. It really is just an economic concept used in both theory and application – there’s no politics behind it and it has nothing to do with “regressive austerity policies”. Here’s a paper published by the Commonwealth Treasury modelling the welfare gain to labour and capital under a modelled decrease in the company tax rate of 1% (under the assumptions of this model ~2/3 goes to labour and ~1/3 goes to capital – different assumptions can give different results and the question is not settled in the literature). But notice how 0% of it goes to “companies”? Are you starting to understand the point yet? If you aren’t, here’s a report by the Productivity Commission on the incidence of the tax and transfer system in Australia and how it distributes income across population and time. The paper itself isn’t overly important but I want to quote a bit that might help you understand the concept: All taxes, regardless of whether they are levied on enterprises or individuals, are ultimately paid out of individual earnings from labour, capital or land (see discussion of economic incidence below). This is not “right wing propaganda”, as I said earlier it is basic economics. It was first year curriculum stuff when I was in undergrad. What is basic economics is that in a market economy businesses exist to make a profit and will pay the lowest wages possible according to the exact same factors you correctly outlined no matter what, which is basic business strategy. Taxes hurt profits, so you've been fed typical right wing propaganda that taxes are evil and don't work because businesses will recoup them through you which for those same reasons is not always the case and guess what, even if it was, that's often not a bad thing when it's on something like carbon tax because it can drive innovation towards more sustainable and other job-creating industries Mate you’re off the f*****g deep end here. I don’t know how you inferred any of this from my post or what connection your brain made to make you think this was some sort of logical response. For someone who constantly tells others to be educated, do research and listen to experts you sure are quick to do anything but when you (wrongly) think people are attacking your political beliefs. Take a breath and admit there might be some things that you don’t know as much about relative to other people, even infi. It’s good for you. |
There's no politics behind tax burden? Try the LNP platform for the last 20 years. I do appreciate your articulation and referencing of your points (links broken?) and I am keen to read more about it, but we're in the politics thread mate, pick a side.
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Its ok taggs. I broke him for you. You'll only get gibberish out of him from now on.
see look. phooks said this Perhaps I can encourage you to check your own biases with a simple question. but then he also said this I wonder if Trump came to Australia how long it would take for infi to suck him off Why do you think sucking d*** is an insult phooks. How did it make you feel to use such a beyond the pale homophobic slur? I trust you will self flagellate for the oppression gods to show how chastened you are that you have used your privilege to insult your enemy by suggesting he may be part of an oppressed minority (which is literally the only possible reason telling someone they suck d*** could be considered an insult). https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-29-2014/QrTaCq.gif There's no politics behind tax burden? Try the LNP platform for the last 20 years. And the the Labor platform for the 13 years before that. Just sayin. |
Lol good effort, I'm glad you're taking the time to learn about minority issues. sadly Trump is not a representative of the male gender. 'You suck d***' implies sucking d***, of any kind, is bad. Sucking Donald Trump's d*** implies you love the right wing so much you would give Trump fellatio.
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id you know that companies don't pay GST?I actually am starting to think companies should pay GST, not because of abstract "who is the consumer" issues, but just because I think it would be simpler to do the accounting and erase the jobs of many tax accountants who exist solely to track GST was paid on and how much they need to claim back. Trying to deal with VAT here in the UK for a small business operating even around the EU is a paperwork pain in the ass. I don't bother claiming it back on small items. Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police.I don't know if I agree with them being inefficient / hard to police. In the UK and I believe most of Europe, income taxes are hugely automated - you don't file a tax return, it's all handled by your employer, and everything Just Works. My big objection to consumption taxes is the haphazard way they're applied to different items. Again in my ongoing mission to rid the world of accountants I don't think there should be any exemptions; it should be on everything (e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?). |
Lol good effort, I'm glad you're taking the time to learn about minority issues. sadly Trump is not a representative of the male gender. 'You suck d***' implies sucking d***, of any kind, is bad. Sucking Donald Trump's d*** implies you love the right wing so much you would give Trump fellatio. Ah dude, Invite you to examine your own biases. Why would loving the right wing imply that? and are you suggesting there was no value judgement in that implication if you choose to accept it? It's bald faced hypocrisy phooks. I've broken you, like vash and fpot and brool before you. the most vash can muster these days is the equivalent of 'i know you are you said you are'. Your highfalutin talk was nothing more than signaling to the in group, dropped at the first sign of trouble. Exactly like I said it was at the start. You told infi to suck d*** which you careful explained was a insult borne of unexamined prejudice against homosexuals. You're a jack ass and I'm bored now. |
The tax system is progressive to try and remedy the inequalities in the economic system. Nobody earns a million dollars because they 'work harder'.
But government is evil and corrupt and beurocratic. Just think of all those hospitals, schools, the legal system oh and that road outside your house, just sitting there rubbing their collective hands together with your stolen tax money |
I rest my case
Nobody earns a million dollars because they 'work harder'. Except virtually every home owner in sydney and melbourne. the 1950's called, it would like its definition of 'rich' back. |
For someone who constantly tells others to be educated, do research and listen to experts you sure are quick to do anything but when you (wrongly) think people are attacking your political beliefs. Take a breath and admit there might be some things that you don’t know as much about relative to other people, even infi. It’s good for you.I would add, maybe try to make sure your posts aren't 80% hard sarcasm. I can't be bothered reading most of them because trying to parse the sarcasm bits out from the bits you mean takes too much effort |
^in a discussion of the progressive taxation system I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about earnings per year. I'll be more explicit for you in future.
PP you wouldn't know highfalutin talk if it hit you in the face. I've seen online communities so sensitive to prejudicial language you wouldn't believe. I've seen instructional sessions where using the word 'trigger' in trigger warning is not allowed because it triggers people with weapon-related PTSD, so you have to use 'content warnings'. I've seen the good, I've seen the bad. The -very- strictly enforced safe zones. The world that our children's children will be fighting as progressives for. I see it because I want to learn why people think and behave they do. The difference between you and I though, is that I acknowledge I'm biased as f*** and I acknowledge I can be wrong, and work to fix it. I don't pretend I'm the perfect human nor work my logic backwards from my beliefs. |
I would add, maybe try to make sure your posts aren't 80% hard sarcasm. I can't be bothered reading most of them because trying to parse the sarcasm bits out from the bits you mean takes too much effort Ahem. allow me to explain troggles. what just happened was I pointed out that phooks had committed himself to the position that 'sucking d***' was a homophobic slur. He then, despite often and loudly condemning homophobia, used 'sucking d***' as insult. Because he was caught in blatant and undeniable hypocrisy he attempted to run interference through a bunch of "see look I am progressive epitaphs" aimed at the conversation infi had just crushed him in. I pointed out that the epitaphs were in fact epitaphs by showing that 1 million dollars is an unremarkable amount of money. I apologise that the preceeding 89 words were required to get the context down to your level, but it probably explains your confusion over (e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?) The difference between you and I though, is that I acknowledge I'm biased as f*** and I acknowledge I can be wrong, and work to fix it. I don't pretend I'm the perfect human nor work my logic backwards from my beliefs. lying makes baby jesus of the traditional family values cry phooks. why do you hate gay people so much. |
^Oh nah I assume he was talking about me being sarcastic. I'm sarcastic as f***
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I wouldn't want to be creepy I am not Joe Biden
Edit: I would love to shake The Donald's hand or even give him a warm hetero manly embrace. |
^Oh nah I assume he was talking about me being sarcastic. I'm sarcastic as f*** oh so people really do earn a million dollars because they 'work harder'. ^in a discussion of the progressive taxation system I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about earnings per year. I'll be more explicit for you in future. |
I think it reinforces this insidious politics of envy when 49.5% tax is worn as a badge of pride by The Greens and Labor.
It's sad that higher income earners have to wear the burden of the government's inefficiency disproportionately. I expect the government would be forced to be far more efficient (or pointless programs removed) if taxation was flat. Income taxes are complex due to the deductions and rebates and gaming of the system (not to mention the cash economy). in a perfect world GST would nott have exemptions (these were negotiated to ensure passage of the legislation in 1998). you only you need to think back to the previous sales tax which had multiple rates levied to see how complexity has reduced. |
*edit* you can read this trog there is no sarcasm at all im just legitimately point scoring against you */edit*
well certainly it is the case that a GST should be applied as broadly as possible. This however (e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?) Is banal. condoms don't have GST attached to them because the womyns contraceptive pill doesn't Tampons do because soap and toilet paper do. It isn't difficult. It isn't the patriarchy. one has medical implications and the other doesn't. its like totally arbitrary man, the pattern is impossible to spot. In the UK it is particularly obscene to run the argument because tampons are in their current category because it *reduces* the VAT levied. but you know I assume trog knew that because we are adding things to For someone who constantly tells others to be educated, do research and listen to experts you sure are quick to do anything but when you (wrongly) think people are attacking your political beliefs. Take a breath and admit there might be some things that you don’t know as much about relative to other people, even infi. It’s good for you. Just to make that leap high enough. this (e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and condoms don't?) is exactly the same as (e.g., wtf do tampons have GST and the womyns contraceptive pill don't?) |
Income taxes are complex due to the deductions and rebates and gaming of the system (not to mention the cash economy). in a perfect world GST would nott have exemptions (these were negotiated to ensure passage of the legislation in 1998). you only you need to think back to the previous sales tax which had multiple rates levied to see how complexity has reduced.From talking to a small sample size of people here in the UK barely anyone seems to bother with deductions in most circumstances - because they don't have to "do their taxes" like we do in Aus, they just forget about it. Maybe my pool is biased (mostly academics and tech people). It's sad that higher income earners have to wear the burden of the government's inefficiency disproportionately. I expect the government would be forced to be far more efficient (or pointless programs removed) if taxation was flat.Yes but higher income earners get the benefit of disproportionate earnings. Obviously I completely disagree with you on the matter of income tax brackets. I've been lucky to live a privileged life and have had moderate success professionally; I've been in a highish bracket most of my adult life and I do wear my higher tax rate as a badge of pride because it is my contribution to my country. The more one reaps the benefits, the more their contribution should be. That is the Australia I grew up in and the one I want to live in. All that said, I CAN see raising the tax brackets as long as we add new ones with higher rates for the top earners. But if you think 50% is too much for people on $300k, I assume you'd baulk at the idea of ever-increasing percentages for people above that. The kind of American-style economy you're advocating for I think is the worst possible outcome for anyone; we already tried the system of government where a few ultra-rich people make up an aristocracy that operates as a ruling class beyond almost any law. I know that is not what libertarians think will happen (if you even consider yourself one anymore!) but quite obviously it is in America. I don't know if Americans are organised enough to build unions to combat the rising aristocracy, but they sure as f*** are armed enough for violent revolution if the crumbs they're living on suddenly dry up. I read this article the other day about what San Francisco has become. I've been going to San Francisco pretty regularly and I've seen it slowly degrade; it has always been one of my favourite cities in the world (I lived there for a year when I was a kid & have had family there for almost my whole life). But now it is a stark reminder of the poverty, the human degradation, the suffering, etc. I don't want to go there any more. |
infi: this image is for you for the next time welfare state comes up :D
http://www.poorlydrawnlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/credit.png (source) |
All that said, I CAN see raising the tax brackets as long as we add new ones with higher rates for the top earners. But if you think 50% is too much for people on $300k, I assume you'd baulk at the idea of ever-increasing percentages for people above that. Is there some good justification for taking more than half what someone earns? I read this article the other day about what San Francisco has become. I've been going to San Francisco pretty regularly and I've seen it slowly degrade; it has always been one of my favourite cities in the world (I lived there for a year when I was a kid & have had family there for almost my whole life). But now it is a stark reminder of the poverty, the human degradation, the suffering, etc. I don't want to go there any more. Remind me again which side of the political spectrum SF leans towards? If I recall every mayor for the last half century has been democratic. under a democratic president for the last 8 of 9 years. You had a point. I'm sure of it. |
Is there some good justification for taking more than half what someone earns? the only justification is quite brazen - f*** you, we want it. Trog you sound very much like you agree to pay that amount due to some sense of morale obligation - ok donate it? That is a lot different to levying it by force. Is our government really that much better for wealthy people that half of their income should go to fund it? Half of your energ ies goes to fund something which is not yours? It's an insult to one's liberty in my view - and gives rise to the distasteful offshoring industry. It's quite lazy to expect others to pay for your lifestyle. The top income tax bracket pays overwhelmingly for everyone else in Australia. I went to San Francisco 3 years ago and was mortified by what the tech industry had turned it into. An inaccessible bubble of smug. The heartland of Californian liberal utopia (obviously riddled with homeless mentally ill people). Nestled amongst multi-million dollar 2 bedroom apartments. The liberal billionaires didn't find a way to fix it... they just made it worse. I am guessing trog's point was where is the government to fix all this? Alternatively where were all the families and charities? They have all gone due to the giant welfare food stamp state. The koalas depicted in that cartoon are the people feeding 50s into pokies. I have no sympathy for them or their destiny. |
We have a state election this weekend so lets talk some real hard hitting politics for once...
Pornopete and Phooks are actually the same person. /Discuss |
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die." - Phooks
I'd say much of the tech industry is indeed built on top of a somewhat insidious exploitation of the cheapest labour possible mantra, linked to the globalisation of knowledge labour. Nothing illegal about it, although perhaps there is in Uber's recent employment law cases. Is it ethically and morally wrong? Perhaps so. Is it starting to distort micro societies in various negative ways? Most likely. There's a healthy middle ground of centralism in this tax debate somewhere, surely... |
Trog you sound very much like you agree to pay that amount due to some sense of morale obligation - ok donate it? That is a lot different to levying it by force. Is our government really that much better for wealthy people that half of their income should go to fund it? Half of your energ ies goes to fund something which is not yours?Well I get some direct benefit out of it. Education, healthcare, roads, water comes out of the tap when I turn it on, electricity is reliable so I can cool my beers, a justice system that discourages people from stealing my s***, a fire department that will turn up if I buy a Samsung phone, etc etc etc. But the INDIRECT benefit I get is not trivial either. A population of health happy citizens that get the same benefits as I do is a big deal. It's an insult to one's liberty in my view - and gives rise to the distasteful offshoring industry.You make it sound like this is some sudden new state of affairs where people with guns have just started turning up to take your money. It ignores the fact that the system we have has evolved over hundreds of years - people group together into societies and pool their resources for mutual benefit. Government exists as a way to shortcut all that tedious donating to individual organisations to create a basic framework for civilisation to happen. I think the liberty argument is the absolutely poorest argument that can be made against taxes, because they ignore the simple fact that most of the great parts of our civilisation exist because of the great works done by the collective will of democratic governments working for their citizens. I would much rather see arguments targeting specific examples where governments have exceeded the scope of their responsibilities without the willing consent of the citizens and in the spirit of the nation (I think the NSA is a great example of this, for example; in Australia the first thing that comes to mind is the stupid school chaplain's programme but maybe just because it enrages me beyond belief and stops me thinking about anything else). You can't just throw your hands up in the air and say "but, liberty". Those who do can either only really be, by definition, either a) a libertarian extremist and support the (IMHO) totally untenable position that there should be no government and no taxes, or b) drawing some other arbitrary line in the sand saying "these are the things I'm happy to pay taxes for because obviously it makes sense for the government to take taxes for THESE specific things, but not THESE other things which are obviously too stupid for words for the government to take my money to pay for". But after all this time having these same discussions with you about this topic, I still have no f*****g idea where your line in the sand is, because these conversations typically come down to "but, liberty" (unless it's about gay marriage :). |
Libertarians just dont understand that most of their wealth is provided from society at large, not entirely from their 'hard work' or 'innovation'. You're taxed for over half your income because the public have provided your ability to gain this amount of wealth, via the taxpayer funding technology, the land or infrastructure you use in which to gain said wealth. Not to mention the amount of wealth that has been extracted from people you employ.
https://i.imgur.com/GNU0kW7.jpg |
Libertarians just dont understand that most of their wealth is provided from society at large, not entirely from their 'hard work' or 'innovation'. Yes "most" of the reason bill gates has $40 billion is because you chuck in $300 a year for road maintenance. He literally couldn't have done it without your contribution. Oh wait doesn't he chuck in at least $600 a year? Why don't you have a billion dollars vash? most of his wealth came from society and you have half his expenses. But after all this time having these same discussions with you about this topic, I still have no f*****g idea where your line in the sand is, because these conversations typically come down to "but, liberty" (unless it's about gay marriage :). Well given this Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed. (Nor Turnbull's dumb personal tax cuts thought bubble, but the top tax rate definitely needs to be pushed out or reduced - to lose half your income after $180,00 is a joke). Fixing the Federal govt debt will be way easier than Qld repaying $81b! (because Feds have taxation powers) and this Is there some good justification for taking more than half what someone earns? and this the only justification is quite brazen - f*** you, we want it. Trog you sound very much like you agree to pay that amount due to some sense of morale obligation - ok donate it? That is a lot different to levying it by force. I'd say the "line" is somewhere around an income tax of greater than 50%. And the "liberty" argument is that it is an impermissible intrusion into a persons personal liberty to forcefully take more than that. Just spit ballin here. See what you do is you read a few posts, and this is the important bit, keep the meaning of more than one of the posts in your head, and then think about what they mean taken together. |
Real hard hitting journalism slaps. No wonder your world view is so f***ed. Hey what's actually going on with those dirty f***en illegals anyway?
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ah yes..."dog whistle politics"...for when you want to call something racist but can't actually identify anything racist about it, so you insist that it is low key SECRET racism
and did you really just link to rationalwiki? thats pretty embarrassing. i'll admit regular wikipedia isn't perfect (amongst its biggest faults i would say are a reliance on 'trusted' sources and moderators that have more power than they should) but rationalwiki doesn't remedy any of those faults. it is conservapedia-tier nonsense with a mostly unsourced, biased pov and it seems like half their articles are about dumb youtube drama and ecelebs. wow so rational. |
When people call asylum seekers illegals, economic refugees, country shoppers and queue jumpers what they actually mean is dirty brown people we don't like stay out of my country and die in yours. When said people are in their beer halls chatting with their brethren they're overt about it, but fortunately society has progressed to the point where to engage in the latter style of language is generally frowned upon in public discourse. This is what dog whistle politics/racism is and it is extremely common and to deny it exists is kind of like denying racism itself exists, which seems to be a pretty common thread among the alt-right these days.
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Oh look fpot calling a general group of people racist. again.
Even better if you deny he has special knowledge which he cannot possibly have (ie knowledge of the internal motivation of someone speaking about illegals) you're denying racism exists. that was was another worldbeater fpot. Nailed it buddy. is this the part where someone has to be nice to you until you stop being f*****g stupid? |
All this complaining about not being able to afford a house. You can afford a house, if you make the same sacrifices and choices that others did.
The issue has been around a long time. It's just very topical right now. In the suburb where I grew up, I could not afford to buy my first property. So I had to MOVE to a location where I could afford to buy. I could have easily rented a unit in wankerville in the heart of the city, and spent years taking selfies around the world, but I did not. I worked during the day, studied at night. I got up and went to work, and I worked hard and earned a reputation and made choices that increased the income. I made lots of mistakes, but I made lots of sacrifices. Now, things are very good. In the area my parents grew up, they could not afford to buy, they had to go to a cheaper area. This 'expansion' can be traced back the cave times. It's a common theme. It's the opposite of "Champagne taste on a beer income". I drive a car that is rough ratio of like 1:40 Vehicle : Equity value For example, if my car was worth 10 k, equity value is 400 k The equity value is increasing, the car is devaluing. This is also a simple example of sacrifice. There are many sacrifices, you would be surprised if I listed them. However some would be shocked by what cab be achieved by responsible choices. The whole thing gets coined as 'avocado on toast' and I have to admit, I do eat avocado on food in fancy little cafes.. but the difference is.. I'm now mid 40's and can afford it. When I was 20 it was hot chips and f'n gravy. I don't think my method/concept is embraced by enough people. We have a culture of 'keeping up with the Jones'. I know people in their 40's and 50's who have ever owned a house, and have no equity, and they had every opportunity I did, they just made poor choices. They might love their choices, but I would consider their choices 'poor', and they have no-one else to blame except themselves. Person I'm thinking of still takes out a personal loan to take wife and kids on family holiday. When I asking him why he can't save up for it instead, he has 'reasons'. My logic is.. don't go on a holiday that requires a personal loan. Camp in the backyard that your renting. I'm mid 40's and purchased my first brand new car last year. I just drove home from visiting a vacated investment property (instead of watching net-flicks). Tonight for dinner will be reheated spag boll. Find a town where there is work for you, move there, find something ugly enough there that will mate with you, maybe buy there. Get into market. In 10 years you will have more options. Stop excuses, find solutions. make sacrifices. You only have one crack at this, so... it's all up to you, put in the effort. Start saving, and save more. Get 1000 up, put in ING direct term deposit. Nice simple way to start. Calories in - calories out. Funds in - funds out. You choose. |
Get 1000 up, put in ING direct term deposit. Nice simple way to start.ING website says: "Personal Term Deposit: The minimum opening deposit is $10,000 and is set for the term." So imagine the rest of your post is off by the same order of magnitude and then maybe you'll agree it's not just about how many avocados one eats |
So imagine the rest of your post is off by the same order of magnitude and then maybe you'll agree it's not just about how many avocados one eats there is GST on a Mercedes S class but there isn't on a rockmelon. How f*****g arbitrary is that s***. |
ING did do $1000.. that might be dated but the rest applies. As usual this guy quotes a line to contest in detail, and rubbishes the theme.
Yes it is still about the avocado concept, but it applies to lots of sacrifices, as I took the effort to translate for those who could not (or who choose to refuse to) understand the analogy. |
Here i'll simplify it:
All this complaining about not being able to afford a house. You can afford a house, if you make the same sacrifices and choices that others did. |
omg disgusting! I woodn't wipe my tanned multiracial arse with these shirts!!! Oh slaps. You just gettin started. here is my favorite from the week. Trump was like charles manson because reasons if you disagree with me you are basically a more racist more sexist more islamophobic Hitler. See if I call you racist I win. |
ING did do $1000.. that might be dated but the rest applies.does it? what were interest rates when your parents bought a house? what impact did that have on pricing? what was the population? There are myriad factors that you gloss over in your attempt to blame the difficulty of buying a house on "the youth today" As usual this guy quotes a line to contest in detail, and rubbishes the theme.haha I think that's the first time I've been accused of not writing enough in response to something.You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post, and it turned out to be wrong by a factor of 10. Does that not give you pause? |
what were interest rates when your parents bought a house? Probably like 18% imagine the rest of your post is off by the same order of magnitude Interest rates would be about the single worst example of a barrier to entry to the market you could choose in the current climate. But lets get those condescending c*** pants out. *trog reading aid*Hey look there is no sarcasm at all in that post at all you're just a d*** */trog reading aid* |
Here, let me shorten it a bit more for you tdog.
Bootstraps |
I think you misspelt racist fpot.
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haha I think that's the first time I've been accused of not writing enough in response to something.You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post, and it turned out to be wrong by a factor of 10. Does that not give you pause? It's just dated. You are arguing about the amount to start a savings account, it's pretty much insignificant. The point is, save. Also, it's not just "on the youth today". As explained it applies to peers who also made their own choices. It also applied to cave men who made their own choices. Also, you state that "You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post" that is also false. Do I need to list the facts out for you? Lets just accept that you made a clear mistake again in targeting the individual rather than arguing the concept. You are purposely looking to find a small point to argue on rather than accept, agree, or discuss the general theory. We agreed recently that the disadvantaged citizens are the ones to be most disadvantaged by excessive immigration, and are ALSO the ones to most likely support the increased introduction of migrants. I think we can agree that for most people who live in Australia, the opportunity is there if choices are made. Also, if people want to sit around dreaming up excuses, then all the more for those who are willing to work for it. Good on them, they do not deserve the hatred from those who did not try hard enough. |
It's just dated. You are arguing about the amount to start a savings account, it's pretty much insignificant. The point is, save.The point IS, the costs of buying a house (like the costs of opening a term deposit) have gone up quite a bit. Also, you state that "You made one factual concrete statement in your whole post" that is also false. Do I need to list the facts out for you? Lets just accept that you made a clear mistake again in targeting the individual rather than arguing the concept.You wrote a bunch of anecdotes. Your "concept" is boring - "save money and you too can be a home owner". That isn't what people are upset about and, like avocados, is a strawman that misses the point entirely. We agreed recently that the disadvantaged citizens are the ones to be most disadvantaged by excessive immigration, and are ALSO the ones to most likely support the increased introduction of migrants.Did we? I wrote a long series of posts explaining my point of view; you failed to address a single point. Which is why I'm less inclined to engage with you on this topic. You are purposely looking to find a small point to argue on rather than accept, agree, or discuss the general theory.I'm not looking for anything; I'm pointing out the blindingly huge blind spot in your premise: you're assuming things that are not true, like, it's so easy to open a term deposit account and start saving. It's 10x harder than you assumed just to do that, and I agree that's a good first step! How much harder is it to save for a house deposit than you think now in an average property on the east coast of Australia compared to even 10 years ago? How much farther out of the city do you think people have to live before they can buy a house they can afford with the money they do have? How many avocados do you think they have to skip before they can qualify for a loan? The "general theory" you're espousing is "you need to save & make sacrifices to buy a house". Indeed. I agree with that statement. I don't agree with the tacked-on rider that is "all the people who can't buy a house they want are simply not following my simple guide to life!" |
I'm pointing out the blindingly huge blind spot in your premise: you're assuming things that are not true, like, it's so easy to open a term deposit account and start saving It's 10x harder than you assumed just to do that Bankwest offer a $1000 dollar term deposit. ING direct offer a saving maximiser product which has no minimum deposit. In fact if you google 'term deposit' you can find several $1000 minimum term deposits. so actually, it is exactly true you can start saving with $1000 if you want to save with a term deposit arrangement. MMMM comfy comfy pants. anytime you want to drop idiotic points when discussing home affordability while hectoring people about idiotic points about home affordability don't feel like you have to run it by me. |
I didn't say "all". It's also false to add absolutes to your interpretation of what I explained. If you argument was rational you would not need to do this.
I did indicate the option to "move" at least once, so again, the integrity of your argument against my concept is deteriorating. Want to work in the city and live in the city? Seems 'entitled' to me. I'd like to have it all too, but I can't so I make choices and sacrifices. When we consider the four quadrants of "willing and able" it is likely that those who are very willing can shift into 'able'. The unwilling.. well they are a funny lot... They tend to lay blame rather than take responsibility, and are harder to assist. Some may become very willing and achieve their goals. Good on them. It is about choices. Not fate, religion, karma, pyramids, luck, voodoo. Stacks of willingness can conquer inability. Do I need to find a job in a rural town on seek or indeed, and find the payrate, AND then find the property prices in that town to prove my point? You know it's true. There are jobs in s***** towns, and good towns that they can't fill, and real-estate in some of these places might appreciate slower, but it tends to still appreciate enough to make it worthwhile. You also know, many people have way too much debt. They are living above their means, they made that choice? They wanted the new 300k house on the s***** 200k land., and they wanted the 50k car to park on the fresh driveway. and they need their avocados, and netflix, and foxtel, and ipads and iphones, and all the other s*** they can't really afford. I don't own a clothes drier. Have not had one for 25 years. When I was 17 I skipped going to see Pink Floyd cause the ticket was $70. I couldn't afford it. Avocados. |
what were interest rates when your parents bought a house? To be fair you can't compare nominal interest rates in isolation. It's a baby boomer standard to say (nominal) interest rates were 20%+ in the late 80s before the 90/91 recession but inflation was a few % points behind. Real interest rates take inflation into account inflation: [1+i=(i+r)(1+pi) where i = nominal, r = real and pi = inflation, known as Fisher equation] as inflation erodes the real value of debt. Real interest rates are remarkably stable over the decades relative to other financial variables. That's one of my bugbears when baby boomers roll that one out. Edit: read some more posts above... Not that anyone gives a s*** but my stupid opinion is that the housing affordability issue is a combination of regulation and demographics in Sydney. Australia, particularly NSW has the most retardedly restrictive and costly planning systems in the developed world. It literally costs millions of dollars to have a planning approval even considered by the department (for a major project), let alone what arbitrary and ridiculous conditions they put on you for... reasons?. I know from first hand experience having delivered major projects in the state. Planning is not the only regulatory issue, it impacts nearly every cost line of a major D&C contractor way beyond the social benefit in my opinion but others may have different views. Combine that with demand increasing constantly due to population growth both organic and immigration and (internal and external, yes net internal emigration last few years but not for decade before NSW had inter/intrastate immigration iirc) and almost no investment in public transport for about 15 years prior to O'Farrell and you get massive house price increases and NIMBYism++ There's no easy fix, it's going to suck for a while. Edit2: Want to work in the city and live in the city? Seems 'entitled' to me. Yeah I get that attitude to a certain extent. Though personally I had to move to Sydney cause the work I did just dried up in Brisbane. I really wish I could do my job literally anywhere but Melbourne or Syd but it's just not possible in the current market. Yes I could have picked a different career and yes I can always start a new one but that sort of view is a bit out of reality for a large chunk of the population. Not all of it as evidenced by the net emigration from Syd over the last few years though. It would be sick to be tradey and be able to pick up and move and know I'd be able to find work! |
Yup. I think SF is worse though but from what (tiny) little I know about Sydney it ain't much better.
The public transport thing I think is the biggest issue. I've thought that for a long time but living in the UK has really hammered it in. I know people that live 100km outside of London and still commute in on a fast train in like 30 minutes. Of course not everyone can do it in that sort of time but still many people choose to do so. I would love to see more high speed rail linking some of the towns close to the capital cities with strong incentive for businesses to relocate or open satellite offices. Australia's problem is a huge country with only a small handful of actual "big cities" that people want to live in :( |
You also know, many people have way too much debt. They are living above their means, they made that choice? They wanted the new 300k house on the s***** 200k land., and they wanted the 50k car to park on the fresh driveway. and they need their avocados, and netflix, and foxtel, and ipads and iphones, and all the other s*** they can't really afford.the youths today are worst of all the youths! I don't own a clothes drier. Have not had one for 25 years.I've not owned or used one in Qld for as long as I can remember but it's because I'm a green hippy that thinks noone should use them in Qld You're just saying the same thing: "I did this 25 years ago so people today should be able to do the same". I don't disagree people who want to buy houses should save and think carefully about where they want to live. I just think it's a bit hand-wavingly insulting and elitist telling people to buy a house an hour out of the city or in some "s***** town" because it's all they can afford - because of an unprecedented boom in housing prices at least partially caused by record low period of record low interest rates, etc, etc - and to abandon or hamstring their career to do so, so they can try to live the kind of life you were fortunate and privileged enough to be able to through circumstances of the times (and, yes, maybe even your sacrifices). FWIW I would love to see more people move to our country towns. But I think to make that feasible we need to connect them better and stop treating them like second class citizens and try to make them the kinds of places people feel like they can live without being so terribly isolated. I certainly suspect I don't disagree with you as much as the other people here do when it comes to property prices. |
i used term deposits to save for my house!
they worked awesomely. |
To be fair you can't compare nominal interest rates in isolation. Thank you for pointing that out, I'll go do some reading. The point was more a) todays interest rates while maybe not as extreme as the 80's nominal rates suggest are still more competitive and so do not present the main barrier to entry to the market; and b) taking nmag to task over the value required to open a term deposit, while suggesting interest rates were more favorable in the past seems fairly d***ish to me. I don't pretend to understand the full picture of why housing affordability is the way it is though your comments about planning regulation are interesting. I note where I live at the moment they are throwing up 7 story apartment buildings like its going out of fashion, but the price off the plan seems remarkably consistent. there just seems to be a bottomless appetite for these kinds of dwellings, though I have heard that in melbourne many of the new apartments sit empty. FWIW I agree the skipping the avocado in the current climate is a bit like pissing on a bush fire, but the underlying point isn't invalid as a result. just to give an example of all the 'privilege' my parents enjoyed, they built their first house on the sunshine coast with their own two hands, my mum while she was pregnant with me. We lived in a caravan on the site for the first two years of my life. Dad was concerned with money in a way people simply are not these days, for example actively making sure we used a little electricity as possible. it took mum and dad 15 years of building up the family business (which started from nothing) to be able to afford a place in Brisbane. It would be disingenuous to suggest we were ever in poverty, and it is true new home owners face different challenges, but to suggest they cruised on wave of privilege to home ownership is nothing short of outrageous. And I might add, coming from someone who is by any reasonable definition privileged. |
just voted, in and out with zero delay.
feels good. one nation last feels even better. |
here Here ... Spook I always put one red neck last , labor to win its going to be another 10 years before people forgive the LNP for what they did when the little asshat was premier. |
It's not that I was privileged Trog. Myself and most friends first purchased around 15 years ago. I have a few friends who never purchased, are in their mid forties and have very little to show for the last 25 years of career. They made their choices. You keep bringing this back to me slandering the 'youth of today' or some s***. These differences apply to all generations. People make choices.
One friend purchased old residential on good block in Silverwater. It was and is a very good growth area and investment. He and his wife eventually decided to move to Perth to be near her family. They chose to sell a property in a high growth area, and then buy in a minerals reliant market during the Chinese slow down in demand. They did this during a rental crisis in Sydney which saw rents shoot high. I thought it was stupid, but they chose to do that. They could have leased out the "high growth area" and paid rent in Perth for years. Some friends looked at what they (we too) could afford in Sydney, 30 year old houses, and decided to move well out of Sydney and do a huge commute so that they lived in a property that was only 10 years old. Well.... I think the ratio of structure value to land value is important. I renovated the 30 year old myself. We had old timber kitchen, and slate floors from 70's. They had granite bench tops and floating timber floors. Over the 20 years what happened? We were very conservative with the first purchase, while some of them went in way over their heads. So I guess in your concept of being close to the city. We chose a really s***** structure (sacrifices) near the city (avocados), and they chose a nice structure (Avocados) in a town outside the city (sacrifices). We all made choices. We don't have cable TV or Netflix, these guys have Foxtel with the full package and Netflix. They have cars double the cost of ours. They have 4 times the number of overseas holidays. They are loading up on avocados, they are going to overdose on them. It's not about the youth of today.. it applies to all generations. I understand it is harder now, but entering the market may require living in a property of far lesser value than mum and dad's or the house/unit they currently rent. That concept has applied for generations. Things have changed recently for first home buyers. On one hand the Chinese have backed off out of the market, however on the other hand the banks are making it harder for people to lend more money than they can really afford. My FB feed typically has selfies of renters I know skiing in Japan, and lounging on cruise ships, standing in front of brand new 50k-70k cars. Historically I've taken more than half my leave over the years to work on renovations because it's cheaper for me to do myself than higher the trades. Over the next month I'll be spending most leave and weekends prepping a vacant property to boost it's sale/rent value. Friends will be lounging on 3k lounges watching foxtel IQ planning next trip to Bali / New Zealand in their rental, complaining the market is impossible to get into, while signing up for more credit cards to max out, sipping on a latte from they 1k coffee machine, on their granite bench top in woop woop, putting bets on centre-bet and TAB. I have all the respect in the world for people who save hard, do it hard, and finally break through into the market. I know the sacrifices they made and make. Giving up the avocados is tough. |
I don't understand why the entire state has to vote on who is going to run Brisbane for the next few years.
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Tim nichols is so fake when he is trying to be a nice guy. He needs to tone down the fake smile. |
i too got a healthy dose of satisfaction by putting one nation last, but I did my vote earlier in the week so I would not be interrupted during the ashes!
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Exit poll says 0.9% swing to labour
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Nine predicts Labor win
ALP 0, LNP 0, In Doubt 93 |
To be fair you can't compare nominal interest rates in isolation. It's a baby boomer standard to say (nominal) interest rates were 20%+ in the late 80s before the 90/91 recession but inflation was a few % points behind. Real interest rates take inflation into account inflation: [1+i=(i+r)(1+pi) where i = nominal, r = real and pi = inflation, known as Fisher equation] as inflation erodes the real value of debt. Real interest rates are remarkably stable over the decades relative to other financial variables.Interesting! Never heard that before. From a quick look though it is still fairly variable although I take your point about stability when people are throwing higher percentage figures from the days of yore around. I do wonder though what psychological impact the "fake" interest rate figure has though? |
It's not that I was privileged Trog. Myself and most friends first purchased around 15 years ago.Sorry to be clear, I didn't mean privileged in the silver spoon Trump sense; I just meant in the circumstances in which you were able to buy. 15 years ago it was a totally different world for property in Australia. And I don't say it negatively; it's just the luck of the draw. And the youths (and as you point out, people like me who are older & just have never bought) just need to suck that aspect of it up and realise that it's a new world and buying a house for $100k like our parents did is simply never going to happen again in a capital city. My FB feed typically has selfies of renters I know skiing in Japan, and lounging on cruise ships, standing in front of brand new 50k-70k cars.I agree buying cars is dumb, but buying experiences is priceless. I am sad you missed out on Pink Floyd when you had the chance to see them. My olde timey anecdote is I spent money I couldn't really afford going to see Michael Jackson when I was ~19 - I've never even been a big MJ fan. I just knew I might not ever get the chance to see him perform again. And sure that ticket money could have been spent on something but I'm glad I had the opportunity. I don't want to be on my deathbed living in a giant empty house full of all the opportunities I didn't take. I think it's simply awesome that people today have the luxury and the lifestyle to explore and do fun things. It is the John Adams quote that gives me most of my socialist-esque leanings and inspires me personally to be the best capitalist I can be: "I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce, and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry, and Porcelaine." |
Phooks, when you're getting the smaqdown from both infi and especially taggs, it's really time to reconsider. I understand your youthful exuberance, but so much of what you say is unsubstantiated nonsense. Please check yourself before you wreck yourself (further).
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Owning a house isn't the end all be all of having made it.
Nor is being wealthy or having a high paying career. Happiness > All materialism. Another problem with Capitalism is that it places huge importance on Materialism. That just leads to an unfulfilled life as you try to out do your neighbors/friends/peers. Break free from that mindset and you'll be happier. Personally i'd rather sacrifice a big house and nice vehicle, for experiences, good food & friends along with a minimalist lifestyle. |
then dont complain about the price of property!
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Infi has never smacked anyone down Hardware:)
Also, i dont think ive ever complained about the price of property. It's just unfortunate that it's creating excessive wealth for people who contribute nothing to society. Another Capitalism problem. |
no doubt vash will be living in a sharehouse on the pension when he is 65 but he had experiences
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no doubt vash will be living in a sharehouse on the pension when he is 65 but he had experiences I'm sitting here trying to picture the mindset required to write the above with the intention of it being an insult and I can't do it. Let's just say someone did have a life full of travelling (or whatever someone considers experiences) and ends up living off the pension in a sharehouse, but they're perfectly okay with it. Please explain how that is a bad thing. |
Infi focusing on the Materialism. Proved my point though.
Because surely thats the only way you end up if you dont own property. |
hey if u want to live alone in a share house all power to you. if you dont value having a family and providing for your family then feel free to accuse everyone else of being materialistic.
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Exactly how does your thought process lead you to think that being anti materialist, and that owning a home isnt required, leads to a life alone in a sharehouse, without a family?
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do you plan to own a home. is that part of your life goals?
do you plan to get married and have a family? is that part of your life goals? I am genuinely interested in your life strategy. |
I own a property. But i'll be selling it soon and i probably wont buy another.
Purchased it when i was much younger & thought that was the thing to do. I plan to have a life partner. marriage is irrelevant. No children. Ultimately i'd like to live on rural land as part of a shared community with self sustained energy & food production. |
Yeah, i largely agree with Nmag. The stories my grandparents (both sides) and my parents tell of how they had to sacrifice and in what way to be able to afford a basic, average home I took on, applied to myself and bought my first house at 22.
It can be done if you want to. Nmag's sentiment and story is right, and is a common story for most homeowners. Some Fat Bastard had a similar story from back in the 80s when apparently houses could be had for 'cheap' -- but the impact you required to have to ensure you could afford that house hasn't changed in recipe. Yes, I'm probably not going to have paid off my house by 42 like my father did - but at very worst i'll be going into retirement owning outright a large family home in what some people are starting to call an 'inner suburb'. Yes, i also agree that houses are too expensive (well, the land is anyway) and that's due to about 14 different factors, including immigration (chiefly poms and kiwis). But my question remains: if houses used to be so cheap, then why did nearly everyone we knew growing up have such ordinary homes? (hint: houses were cheap because discretionary spend was smaller due to cars costing the equivalent of $80k just for a holden and landline phone bills of equiv. of $200 a month). |
It's the old "AC" concept again...
Recurring costs of throwing (what is perceived by the deluded to be) 'disposable income' at luxury lifestyle = Avocado Choices (AC). http://media.mercola.com/assets/images/foodfacts/avocado-nutrition-facts.jpg It's Sunday morning, so instead of driving down to the local car wash and getting a double latte with smashed avocado on toast, while some 457's detail my car and the fleet of local BMW/Volvo SUV's... I'll put the kettle on for a cup of tea, and wash the wife's and my modest cars myself, and then load up her car with some tools, and head over to the rental to see what I can do, to tidy it up till my motivation starts to expire. |
Running 2 cars isn't living modestly.
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Today the President of the United States endorsed a website named MagaPill, a crackpot conspiracy website which promotes things such as pizzagate, Las Vegas shooter false flag conspiracies, spirit cooking, organ harvesting, weaponised forced vaccinations and earthquake machines.
https://i.imgur.com/WiNEzTo.png |
Running 2 cars isn't living modestly. It says "modest cars". |
lolz ignore redhat, hes out of touch with real australia
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But my question remains: if houses used to be so cheap, then why did nearly everyone we knew growing up have such ordinary homes? (hint: houses were cheap because discretionary spend was smaller due to cars costing the equivalent of $80k just for a holden and landline phone bills of equiv. of $200 a month).Because people used to have kids when they were in their early twenties and less financially secure (from a quick look, median age in Australia has gone up 5 years in the last ~40 years)? Because there was far less population pressure and more houses available for first time home buyers so people bought earlier to start their families much earlier? Dunno about the cars costing the equivalent of $80k thing. As a result of this conversation I checked my parents first purchase (house in Ashgrove when I was one or two years old); they paid I thnk $40k for it at the time, which is apparently $100k today, according to the RBA's inflation calculator (although taggs might be able to point out if that is OK to use for property, because it refers to a representative ‘basket of goods and services’). How did you derive the 80k figure? |
So happy about the QLD One nation result.
Hanson finally got a good dose of reality. Apparently those who claimed there's a big right wing wave going on world wide were incredibly wrong. |
So happy about the QLD One nation result.are you not concerned they got more votes than the greens? |
No. QLD is the texas of Aus after all.
I expected the One Nation vote to be much higher. |
Ultimately i'd like to live on rural land as part of a shared community with self sustained energy & food production. The year is 2035, vashs daughter breaks her silence. Vash sees a 12.8% state wide swing to one nation as something other than a move to the right. It's only preference deals that are keeping them out. To get that in perspective a national swing of 5.7% was called a landslide for Kevin Rudd. |
Cute PP. Except i said i dont want kids ;)
Here we are with another Labor Government. That right wing wave coming anytime soon? |
Vash sees a 12.8% state wide swing to one nation as something other than a move to the right. We don't have good numbers yet, or at least I couldn't find them. I don't think there is a broad swing to right-wing politics in QLD. Looks mostly like a normal, mild, 2nd-term swing against the Government with PHON and KAP eating into the conservative base. The Greater Brisbane area saw swings generally to the ALP. Edit: Yeh looks like it, I don't see a huge swing to the right in this result, unless I'm missing something? https://i.imgur.com/JnSkwXT.png |
Agreed Hog that is a pretty good interpretation. If you subtrack the swing away from LNP from the swing towards One Nation then its a very mild swing up for them.
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so you see the orange bar which is the only positive swing in the state greater than1.5% to the far right party?
Again to get that in perspective. In 2012 an 8.1% swing to the LNP nearly removed the ALP from parliament entirely. in 2015 a 10.5% swing to labor won them government. a positive 12.8% swing is huge dude. one nation had a primary vote of 0.1% in 2012 and 0.9% at the last election they now have a primary vote of 13.7% and are the third largest party in by primary vote in the state. It hasn't won them many seats, but given their starting position that is not that surprising. I'd say that's worth a raised eyebrow. |
The PUP votes had to go somewhere.
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seems uncontroversial that one nation sits to the right of pup. that would mean a swing rightwards.
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Good point there Redhat. Palmer's vote in 2013 was 11%.
You wouldn't see Palmer voters go for the major parties nor the Greens. So yeah, this right wing wave sure has fizzled out. |
PUP held 5.1% of the primary vote in the last election. It isn't possible for PUP to explain what happened.
And considering PUP was advocating flying refugees from malaysia to australia instead of mandatory detention, I seriously doubt most PUP voters went to the immigration has to be stopped party. |
Most people voting for One Nation have very little knowledge of their policy platform, they mostly chant on about how 'genuine' Hanson is, which is total bollocks really.
Same kind of reason people chose PUP i'd guess, or because they were the only major alternative other than Lib/lab/greens. Let's be honest here, how many Australians would check a political party's policy platform before making an informed voting decision? |
I seriously don't understand how you developed this view of yourself vash.
the unwashed masses just vote for genuineness (to the point they ignore a central policy position). yeah ok. I take it that analysis doesn't apply to you, because you vote green (lol). Even if pup voters were just led around by their noses, which is a manifestly ridiculous thing to say, *all of them* going to one nation accounts for less than half of one nations vote. |
Plenty of One Nation supporters were toting about 'stopping' the Safe Schools program. About how it's being forced onto them, that Labor and/or Liberal is pushing it, etc.
Except, it wasn't really part of either Labor or Liberals plans, it isn't really being funded by government and it is totally up to School Principal if they want to run any part of the program if at all. In other words, these people were just blindly following s*** they have been told by god knows who. Also, keep in mind, some of the random s*** One Nation candidates actually said, totally wrong stuff, and they were the candidates. I would be willing to wager that the education levels of the average One Nation voter is below the national average and that many of them truly weren't all that informed on the actual policies of any party. |
How did you derive the 80k figure?Average Full-Time Wage is currently $83.6k. In 1974 wages were $4940 a year But a basic kingswood was $4785 That actually puts a new basic vinyl bench seat manual no aircon no power steer kingswood at $81k, as an equivalent to current full time earnings. Because people used to have kids when they were in their early twenties and less financially secure (from a quick look, median age in Australia has gone up 5 years in the last ~40 years)? Because there was far less population pressure and more houses available for first time home buyers so people bought earlier to start their families much earlier? Yes, hence my prior sentence to that talking about the ~14 other factors. Those are two legitimate factors of why last edited by hardware at 21:04:49 27/Nov/17 |
yeh just checked with my dad & he thinks he paid between $3-4k for our old Kingswood station wagon. So the price of cars has come down by a factor of 3-4 in the last ~40 years, and the price of property has gone up by 7-10x.
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Agreed Hog that is a pretty good interpretation. If you subtrack the swing away from LNP from the swing towards One Nation then its a very mild swing up for them.man I see it completely differently: that it is a terrifying uptick showing that the main parties are completely f*****g losing the plot and Australians are increasingly desperate for things to change. Not desperate enough to vote for the Greens, apparently, but the raging s****how that is the ONP. I am embarrassed to say I know f*** all about regional Qld but when I come back I plan to visit a lot more of the towns. I would have thought strong environmental support and things like energy independence and clean water and s*** would be far more important to them than the usual bulls*** boogeyman that ONP constantly go on about. (haha like that recent Bob Katter video about the croc attacks in Qld, it was hilarious) |
Maybe toll.
But I read the other day that the likelihood of being a climate change deniers goes up with increased education levels. I'll try and find a source for that, but seeing as you haven't sourced lets just take each other at face value. But here is the thing. I doubt you'll find that greens supporters (or party supporters of any stripe really) differ significantly on being informed on the facts that decide elections. Again I read the other day, for the 2016 US Elections polling showed that republicans and democrats were more or less equally well informed on the important issues, in fact republicans were slightly better informed (but this changes election to election). That means that the average trump supporter was likely to be more informed than the average Hillary voter. Not by much, but but neither side can be credibly claimed to be uniformed. Here is how I view the attitude that people who vote one nation are ill informed. There is a chance some of them are. But more likely one nation are talking to a societal issue directly or indirectly which affects them more acutely than people who voted for other parties. Calling them a bunch of racist idiots is a way of not taking those issues seriously. I think the consequences of taking that attitude are becoming increasingly clear. The phrase 'reasonable minds can differ' seems to have been completely jettisoned from the political lexicon. that it is a terrifying uptick showing that the main parties are completely f*****g losing the plot and Australians are increasingly desperate for things to change If you wind that back to people are looking for alternatives to the major parties, we completely agree. |
Vash sees a 12.8% state wide swing to one nation as something other than a move to the right. He's more interested in hating on the opposition than supporting the environment. What ever happened to hippy love Vash? You won't attract a full commune for your off-the-grid-commune-farm without love... https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d6/4a/a8/d64aa8aaaf3437c82768f764245c18e5.gif Give some love to the big Orange man too, he's leading them out of economic ruin. Rudd recons he saved us from the GFC... I'm so glad Rudd made China have a huge boom that sucked materials in from all over... oh and that was good Labor policy to make sure Australia was well stocked with minerals and positioned close to China. I hope the Orange man makes the same ridicules claims, so Rudd lovers can argue about Orange man's claim to 'being the saviour of the times'. We could see USA was pulling out of the bottom more than a year ago. This was inevitable, who would be the president at the time was unknown, but they were likely to be at the wheel as USA comes out of ruin. I'm interested to see how this plays out in media as things recover. Did Rudd save us from the GFC? Love Vash Love Also, with voting, many people just vote for that one thing (maybe two) that they are passionate about. I'll vote for X cause they like pink donuts and I like pink donuts, or they are going to reduce the tax on pink donuts and I like pink donuts. I think it's that simple. OR they vote what they were indoctrinated into by family or university, or union. Some will vote against. So I'll vote Z cause Y hates them, and I'm not a fan of Y much, and a few things Z said ring home. I don't think people read too much into policies etc. I like to at times, maybe some elections, not all. I take a bit of interest in local government. |
That higher education thing is more amongst American Republicans than the world at large. And to be a climate scientist you kinda need higher education...
Also if you're constantly saying 'I'm not a racist' it's pretty clear you are. |
for the 2016 US Elections polling showed that republicans and democrats were more or less equally well informed on the important issuesInstead of refering to an editorial why not go to the source? Highly educated adults – particularly those who have attended graduate school – are far more likely than those with less education to take predominantly liberal positions across a range of political values. And these differences have increased over the past two decades.I didn't read the whole thing but that editorial without any links might be full of s***. |
I don't think policy platforms is a major driver in how people vote, I doubt it is for the highly educated either really.
I agree with the petester, I think it speaks to some kind of societal issueS. I wonder if there's parallels to the disenfranchisement with established parties like in France with Macron and in some ways Trump in the US. Seems to me people are getting sick of the political establishment status quo and want drastic change, wherever it comes from. Likewise I agree with troggles, 300,000 people, and 12% of the vote going to One Nation is a big deal, a f*****g travesty, and really not okay, imo. |
Instead of referring to an editorial why not go to the source? Ah well a good start with that line of questioning is to cite the actual source. So way to really stick it me bruh. the article wasn't discussing the partisanship review, and this idea that post graduate educated people are necessarily better informed as opposed to indoctrinated is one that needs to f*** right off. PWC have dropped the university degree requirement in their hiring practices. So people aren't getting a good enough education in accounting at university to justify hiring them over a high school grad. go and read real peer review for the state of play for large swathes of the post grad humanities. They ain't 'informed' about s***. They're partisan though, oh they are partisan. |
man I see it completely differently: that it is a terrifying uptick showing that the main parties are completely f*****g losing the plot and Australians are increasingly desperate for things to change. Not desperate enough to vote for the Greens, apparently, but the raging s****how that is the ONP. The ALP had a negative 1.5% swing, basically to the Greens in one single seat. The Left's primary voting behaviour was largely unchanged, with standard GRN => ALP preference flows. The ALP looks to *gain* a majority now, compared to 41 apiece ALP/LNP in the 54th Parliament: https://i.imgur.com/H4pmhZM.png As of this morning: https://i.imgur.com/eVMdyR5.png The swing to PHON isn't a general swing right. Its the LNP's deeply conservative base having nowhere to go as they lose faith. I don't quite understand how the ALP potentially gaining six seats seats while the LNP loses one can be interpreted as either a swing to the right or a 'main parties losing the plot'. The LNP is dysfunctional at a State and Federal level. |
The ALP gaining seats would almost be directly from the LNP getting into bed with ONP and also because Tim Nicholls is fake and in hindsight it was a terrible choice to stick with him after the Newman regime.
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The ALP gaining seats would almost be directly from the LNP getting into bed with ONP and also because Tim Nicholls is fake and in hindsight it was a terrible choice to stick with him after the Newman regime. So the LNP (and the Right in general) is in disarray? Compiled some data on changing seats to get a gist of the left/right movement in the 43rd Parliament: https://imgur.com/Uaiain7.png |
The green and labor public servant voters who work at ABC JJJ, have been caught failing to be apolitical again. A small but growing percentage of listeners believe Australia day to be invasion day. With 41 k a year average, I think everyday is invasion day. The ABC's board will be asked to reconsider triple j's decision to move the date of its highly successful Hottest 100 countdown away from Australia Day, according to the Communications Minister.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-28/abc-board-to |
Ah well a good start with that line of questioning is to cite the actual source.Well you said from 2016 and I didn't feel like going through the entire catalog just because the opinion piece you cited didn't link any real source material. Also makes sense for them not to link a source since it doesn't back up their opinion with any statistically significant data. I completely agree that educated and informed are not the same thing. Educated people are more likely to be able to process information though, rather than simply absorb it and parrot it back. Just look at that video of Pauline Hanson talking to that guy about submarines, that's a fish and chip shop level education trying to deal with information. |
So the price of cars has come down by a factor of 3-4 in the last ~40 years, and the price of property has gone up by 7-10x.Correct about cars. And remember you need to replace them (or did in those days) after about 10 years and spend another huge amount again. By the time my father was my age he'd spent two full years wages on vehicle depreciation, where as I've spent about 5 months. He had to have loans for those cars, which then meant he didn't have money for a bigger home loan. This was a typical arrangement and the lack of disposable income because it was tied up in all of life's other expenses prevented house prices from getting away. |
Triple J changed the date
In B4 everyone who isn't indigenous gets mad |
Triple J, is part of #theirabc run by virtue signalling melbourners so I'm not surprised. How are people supposed to listen to it while they are at work when the 27th falls on a weekday? Totally retarded decision. Unless they do it as a once-off token move. In which case it is also retarded virtue signalling.
The Qld eleciton has been fascinating. Labor have done well promoting none of their own successes and recycling the anti-Newman strategy. LNP campaign was so tame, plenty of material to attack a hopeless do-nothing Labor government. ONP did a good job wreaking havoc with an anti-sitting MP preference strategy. They helped LNP sitting members lose. The election has been exciting and chaotic to watch. I'm hoping for a minority government so we can have 4 years of chaos. It's so entertaining to watch (and helps to stop bad laws get passed). |
do-nothing Labor government. I'm hoping for a minority government So you're hoping for more of the same? Do you like a do-nothing labor govt? Well, I do. I like a do-nothing anything government. Given that the majority of decisions governments make are bad, the less they do, the better. Standout pluckaduck govt decisions: mandatory voting preferences and gerrymandering. They couldn't even get that to work in their favour. |
virtue signalling Ok here we go: So your argument is that A) the date shouldn't be changed because B) anybody who wants it changed just wants to do so because doing so makes them look like they have virtue but actually C) changing the date is not virtuous at all? logic Given that the majority of decisions governments make are bad, the less they do, the better. anyway, would you like to put a theoretical or sociological stance behind your view? or are you just parroting typical right wing 'taxes r theft'? Let me help you with the task; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd33BahdAjs&li |
So you're hoping for more of the same? Do you like a do-nothing labor govt? especially in relation to governments planning to raise taxes: yes. in relation to the issues under their control, espeically their management of Queensland Rail, their record speaks for itself. Ok here we go: So your argument is that A) the date shouldn't be changed because B) anybody who wants it changed just wants to do so because doing so makes them look like they have virtue but actually C) changing the date is not virtuous at all? logic starting from the point that Triple J's hottest 100 on Australia Day is part of the Australian lexicon, factoring in that from a practicality point of view enjoying the playlist on a public holiday logically is the best time to do it, there would need to be an overwhelmingly compelling reason to change it. their reason stated was "due to the controversy surrounding Australia Day". I don't see any controversy surrounding Australia Day and they cited no survey or popular sentiment backing except possibly with their QANDA viewing black bespectacled acolytes. Thus is it is virtue signalling i.e. taking a "tough" decision to parrot a worthless virtue that is not even held by the wider population. C) changing the date is virtuous to the ABC management no doubt and to the people they kiss ass to: the politically-correct left. Given that the majority of decisions governments make are bad, the less they do, the better. i agree from a parliamentary point of view the fewer laws (*cough* lock out and ID scanning) that Labor passes the better- and a minority will force them to negotiate out the worst parts hopefully. Worse though, the Labor government's executive has been a do-nothing, incurring debt and public service bloat for no tangible improvement in the state and no plan to pay back government debt. |
Do people still listen to triple J? I would have thought spotify and the like would be making broadcast radio as relevant as broadcast TV.
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I enjoy the hack program on Triple J.
Unlike conservative stations, they bring on people from both sides of politics for a discussion rather than 'your father died of shame' kind of crap. |
I put on double j because I am old and cannot listen to JJJ anymore and also to fap to myf's husky voice.
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How are people supposed to listen to it while they are at work when the 27th falls on a weekday?In their FAQ, they refer to picking "the fourth weekend of january", so I suspect it's not hard locked onto the 27th, but will instead float to be the last weekend in Jan (or the Saturday after Australia Day). Locking it to the 27th would be madness. But they did a poll with 60k responses and most people were OK with the vote. If it's good enough for Brexit and gay marriage, it's good enough for moving Australia Day. http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/9197336/data/hottest-100-survey-graph-2-data.jpg I didn't vote (if I had, I would have said "don't care"), but moving it to Saturday I think is better. Big mid-week drinking days listening to the countdown were hard work but now I have a Sunday to recover. edit: they cited no survey or popular sentiment backingyeh they did |
Well you said from 2016 and I didn't feel like going through the entire catalog just because the opinion piece you cited didn't link any real source material. So you just link to a random survey? yeah ok. Also makes sense for them not to link a source since it doesn't back up their opinion with any statistically significant data. The actual source does, and Pew disagree with you on statistical significance. Educated people are more likely to be able to process information though, rather than simply absorb it and parrot it back. Just look at that video of Pauline Hanson talking to that guy about submarines, that's a fish and chip shop level education trying to deal with information. While we are talking about uncited claims. Is there some reason to believe that a post-graduate educated person is better able to process information? I'm sure an art theory major would be exceedingly well prepared to answer questions about submarines by comparison 0_o. |
I would have thought strong environmental support and things like energy independence and clean water and s*** would be far more important to them than the usual bulls*** boogeyman Some of the GRN policies (like the stopping of all feral animal control until a more humane procedure can be found) are absolutely toxic to regional voters. Even those only ~45min drive (like Jimboomba) have feral pest problems. This alone is enough to get them preference last. 3. Ban those poisons and trapping methods which cause extreme suffering, and support research into more humane methods of population management.GRN Policy page They also want to stop clearing for grazing land. I can get that, I can even support that, but it's dramatically opposite to what farmers want. Water Security? Previous Green policies (and groups like Greenpeace, that sadly some voters can't tell the difference from) are dead against new dams. Farmers rely on personal dams. The hoops they have to go through now is more than enough headache for them, I can understand why they don't want it worse. Central North / North QLD has a lot of people employed by the mining sector. And their Husbands/Wives/Kids. The reason that Inner west and South Brisbane do so well for the Greens, is because all these great policies have absolutely no primary affect on them. So what if freal dogs aren't allowed to be trapped for a while? I haven't seen any around here. Dams? We've got Wivenhoe, we're good. They want to knock down trees for a new estate? Why can't they live in a town house in the city like me? Also, why are town houses in the city so expensive? Plus we get cheap/better public transport... well... we do... in the city... those people out on the farms will have to still drive. I actually put Greens first, for the first time ever, this election. Though I can see, and agree 100%, why those that would be the most impacted by their policies (Hint: not inner city hipsters) put them last. |
Triple J, is part of #theirabc run by virtue signalling melbourners so I'm not surprised. How are people supposed to listen to it while they are at work when the 27th falls on a weekday? Totally retarded decision. Unless they do it as a once-off token move. In which case it is also retarded virtue signalling. I believe the ABC, including JJJ, is for the most part administered from Sydney, but that's neither here nor there I'd argue that moving the Hottest 100 is not virtue signalling, or if it is, then it doesn't fit a definition of the term that is particularly useful - they are practicing what they preach, so to speak if they do move it back it will probably be due to pressure from certain government ministers and not from their audience |
I actually put Greens first, for the first time ever, this election. Though I can see, and agree 100%, why those that would be the most impacted by their policies (Hint: not inner city hipsters) put them last.Thanks dude. Good post & certainly shows I have a lot to learn about regional Qld. Probably not unlike every party except ON and Katter. |
Actually Scooter to your point on rural pest control methods it's a tremendously underfunded area by govt, we'd have fantastic solutions by now if tiny R&D grants didn't get cut at unis/CSIRO, I know a number of very promising Aussie labs had to switch to different projects or some got lucky, a UQ group got IBM to fund for GM pest management methods and theres a joint research effort to I think it was cane toads which found traps for their tadpole life stage were a huge success
Telling rural folks they can go out and shoot s*** willy nilly is nice and all but it's just not a long term fix. |
But yeah do certainly agree there are segments of the greens platform I disagree with, but overall it's better than major parties for now
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So you just link to a random survey? yeah ok.A good reason to cite references perhaps? The actual source does, and Pew disagree with you on statistical significance.No it doesn't, no they don't. While we are talking about uncited claims. Is there some reason to believe that a post-graduate educated person is better able to process information? I'm sure an art theory major would be exceedingly well prepared to answer questions about submarines by comparison 0_o.This is a great example of someone taking in information yet not being able to process it. |
A good reason to cite references perhaps? maybe. but seeing as you linked to the first survey you could find, maybe not. The result of the pew research does support the thesis of the article which is that republican voters are not less informed that democratic voters and there is some reason to think they are slightly more informed. No it doesn't, no they don't. Yes it does, and yes they do. This is a great example of someone taking in information yet not being able to process it. If you say so. I'm sure you meant something other than a university education will better prepare someone for dealing with the rigors of submarine acquisition than working in a fish and chip shop because of supposed information processing benefits. while we are on the subject. linking to a random survey about republicans and democrats when the discussion was about how informed republicans or democrats are would be an example of what exactly? looks like you took in a key word and posted the first link you came across which matched the keyword to me. I guess I should use citations, to guard against lack of information processing ability. |
Actually Scooter to your point on rural pest control methods it's a tremendously underfunded area by govt, we'd have fantastic solutions by now if tiny R&D grants didn't get cut at unis/CSIRO, I know a number of very promising Aussie labs had to switch to different projects or some got lucky, a UQ group got IBM to fund for GM pest management methods and theres a joint research effort to I think it was cane toads which found traps for their tadpole life stage were a huge success sigh. And if the policy was 'greens will fund research and subsidize any resultant solution for regional people' they might listen. But the policy is a ban on pest control until research which may or may not deliver is complete. if this GM pest management methods is genetically modified pest management, there is zero change the greens are funding it. |
I'm a city kid. However there's rather dangerous feral dog packs roaming around even at my parents place in Boonah, which is only an hour or so out of Brisbane. Those dogs would likely kill my parent's dogs and probs have a fair go at my mum if given the opportunity. Lucky their neighbour is a farmer type who has a rifle and keeps them in check. I can defo understand Scooter's points there.
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Actually Scooter to your point on rural pest control methods it's a tremendously underfunded area by govt Totally agree. If their policy was simply more funding, I'd be all for it. You might even get some regional voters to be ok with it. It's not just that though. Which is the problem. Telling rural folks they can go out and shoot s*** willy nilly is nice and all but it's just not a long term fix. The fact that you make the leap from "poisons and trapping methods" to 'shooting s*** willy nilly' further enforces the divide Trog was talking about. Farmers don't shoot s*** willy nilly, bullets cost money. It's inner city hunters (people like my brother) that take their guns and go out to enjoy a weekend of recreational hunting (i.e. shooting s*** willy nilly) They don't vote Greens either. As for GM pest management, GRN are pretty staunchly against anything GM. Unless things have changed significantly from their current policy live on their info page. #7 (maybe #8) is about the only reasonable principle they hold on the topic. |
If you say so. I'm sure you meant something other than a university education will better prepare someone for dealing with the rigors of submarine acquisition than working in a fish and chip shop because of supposed information processing benefits.At this point you're just embarrassing yourself. |
you make the leap from "poisons and trapping methods" to 'shooting s*** willy nilly' further enforces the divide Trog was talking about. Farmers don't shoot s*** willy nilly, bullets cost money. I'm aware of farmers using guns to shoot feral pigs/foxes/dogs etc, perhaps you're talking about industrial farmers or? My interpretation of the greens platform is that they would likely ban shooting pests for rural folks because they believe it's inhumane, but maybe not The greens GM policy is very ham fisted but it does seem reasonable in the long term tbqh. The biotech industry is a s****how and the benefits GM seeds give to farmers are eaten up in jacked prices and higher barriers to entry for everyday farmers anyway. Like many industries regulation and breaking up the oligopoly would see a huge benefit to many small/medium farmers and consumers thanks to increased competition. And I can imagine like most engineers or scientists doing ecological/environmental reports, these days the major companies just want to know what the legal limits are to f*****g up the environment is, and operate as close as possible to it. You don't often get genetic/microbiologists and ecologists working towards innovation together so there could even be some sweetass joint ventures or new research applications out of it |
Yeah, that's not 'willy nilly' though. I'm talking about anyone that lives in regional QLD. Which is only ~45min drive away from Brisbane.
Along with trapping and poison they might ban shooting as well. That's not their policy though, which is why I didn't mention it. Seemed like a bit of a slippery slope putting policies into their mouths. There should be more competition in GMO, again I agree 100%. You can be damn sure there will be less if we implement policies that make it so they can't own/profit off their own research though. CSIRO has done a bit of their own research (which I also support) last time they had a big Wheat crop Greenpeace went in with wipper-snippers and destroyed most of it (not kidding, it actually happened. ACT Greens member came out in defence of Greenpeace at the time.) It's not just Ham fisted, it's anti-science and just plain backwards. Which is an odd position for them, considering how pro-science they are most other places. |
At this point you're just embarrassing yourself. If you say so captain information processing. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how a degree in theology will better equip you for discussing submarines than working in a fish and chip shop. I guess we'll never know. More's the pity. |
Which is an odd position for them, considering how pro-science they are most other places. They are pro science when it suits them. Just like everyone else. Their nuclear policy has little basis in fact. And as far as their GMO policy goes, item 7 in principles is pulled from thin air. Farmers are not required to buy GMO stock, never have been and never will be. Look up john haidt and his discussion of sacred values. Where ever your sacred values lie, you can expect on close inspection to see a science free zone. |
This is precisely a major problem I have with the current major governments. Many of them have law degrees or are some kind of investment banker, and I dare say many of those with Law degrees haven't practiced much and/or were pretty s*** at it. The career politicians, etc. Many of the MP's put into various portfolios have f*** all experience in that area, and from what I can tell expert advice is seemingly not sort after and/or it is just plain ignored. Many of these politicians are simply not equipped to understand a significant portion of the portfolios they oversea and make up seemingly random policies based on whatever the f*** strikes their fancy at the time. I say this because there are countless policies, by both major governments, that just plain ignore scientific findings and many times kind of do the opposite. A science minister that has f*** all experience with understanding science .. yeah I'm sure that is useful for making good policy. God it s**** me. I would so much prefer our leaders had degrees in philosophy, with detailed knowledge of a variety of methods to direct and foster a nation. An understanding of humility and a strong willingness to seek and use expert advice without getting all defensive about their own ego's. When a policy needs to be enacted into Law, have your expert panel of lawyers write it up. Ideally each MP would actually have a degree and/or solid experience in the portfolios they manage. I know it's a dreamworld to have such a thing, but f*** being OK with letting a bunch of banksters and lawyers try and tell me what I can and can't do, because I sure as hell know whatever it is they want, probably isn't for my own well-being with their backgrounds... |
The biotech industry is a s****how and the benefits GM seeds give to farmers are eaten up in jacked prices and higher barriers to entry for everyday farmers anyway. Like many industries regulation and breaking up the oligopoly would see a huge benefit to many small/medium farmers and consumers thanks to increased competition. For what it's worth both of these are actually the reverse. Farmers (who aren't ideologically opposed to GE seeds) generally love GE seeds in spite of their cost because they have a guaranteed and consistent yield, are insured as such, require fewer inputs, help cater to practices that improve soil health and usually help their bottom line. Regulation on GE crops actually stifles public innovation in this field and is why the large biotech companies actually lobby for regulation, contrary to what most drooling anti-ge pundits think. Current regulatory requirements keep most small outfits out of the game because the required capital and time investments are prohibitive. (Have a read of what the Simplot guys for example have to say on this matter) There should be no additional regulation on new GE traits than there are on new traits produced by any other method. |
@toll
Broadly agree, but would add that I don't think ordinary people being in parliament is a terrible idea. It exists to govern ordinary people with their consent. Farmers (who aren't ideologically opposed to GE seeds) generally love GE seeds in spite of their cost because they have a guaranteed and consistent yield, are insured as such, require fewer inputs, help cater to practices that improve soil health and usually help their bottom line. It is even more pronounced than that Jim. depends where you draw the line for 'GM', but developing new breeds arguably fits the bill. Farmers have been buying seed from seed vendors for exactly the reasons you describe for well over a hundred years. If you save your own seed you have very limited control over the genetic linage of the plants, and so when nature does its thing and cross pollinates with wild breeds which have lower yields, the farmers income drops accordingly. GMO is a scwary boogie man twist on something that has been practiced in one form or another for thousands of years. The process of species domestication is GM. With this said, the fact that the greens reject the science on GMO and Nuclear but accept it on climate change is actually perfectly consistent with their core values. Which maybe summarized as the the naturalistic fallacy writ large. We haven't even touched the controversial stuff. You can be confident they don't hold views consistent with the research around IQ. |
If only PP analysed the policies of Trump/ON/LNP with as much vigor, he may yet become a Greens voter.
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Being anti-gmo is about as smart & beneficial as being anti-vaccines.
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Indeed, though you'd be hard pressed to find a political party that matches your views 100%.
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Vash I think if you don't see that he does indeed do that, it's just further testament to your ideological blinkers. From my perspective I'd hazard a guess that he could trot out a long list of faults with each of those parties/politicians. It seems like you're conflating criticism of some of your own viewpoints, with support for right-wingers. This is a problem I face with a lot of my far-left family members and it stems from a lack of critical thinking and emotional attachment to a position on something.
I also have to question the reasoning you employed to arrive at that point re: voting for greens in the first place, when two hugely important factors for all people on the planet - (ge) food and (nuclear) energy - have been highlighted as areas that greens are religiously and unreasonably opposed to, despite the science on both matters. I totally agree with you on 'hard pressed to find a political party that matches your views 100%' - I feel exactly the same way. I like a lot of the things the greens appear to stand for, but it's a concern to me that they are so wrong on at least these matters. I like a lot of the things the liberal democrats appear to advocate for, but often can't get on board with the specifically libertarian aspects. I can't really think of anything at all that I like about the LNP so I guess I can at least rule one out entirely :) |
I have yet to see PP criticise the LNP/ON/Trump, but plenty on the Greens & Democrats. My point stands :)
There are alternatives to food production, and energy other than GE & Nuclear. There are no alternatives to reversing the impact Climate change, and corporatism has on the environment, and us. Infact, if we fought Climate change much earlier, we wouldn't need GE Food. There are immense amounts of ways to generate energy also. Having said that i dont agree with the stance the Greens have on those, but it certainly isn't a deal breaker considering the piss poor policy of the opposing parties. |
I have criticized trump. Ready I'll do it again.
His attitude on free trade will hurt the American economy. I can say it again if you'd like. I've said it from the start. Just because I don't run shrieking to hide under the bed Vash doesn't mean I'm particularly happy with the outcome of the last US election. And I might say I am being vindicated about trump consistently. Remember how he was definitely so mentally ill we would definitely have a nuclear war? Well the chance to pull the trigger has been here for about a year now and north korea is still there. He will be a slightly bad president. He is not the herald of the apocalypse. And watching fpot jack off to perceived racism is a source of constant enjoyment, so I see a sliver lining. 3 more years of it, I can hardly wait. I swear he reads news sites with a tub of Vaseline by the keyboard. Please run through for us, because it will be f*****g hilarious, what effect a method of business ownership has on the climate Vash. Please tell me how the board of directors running a company on behalf of shareholders, as opposed to a limited liability partnership arrangement is killing the amazon. Infact, if we fought Climate change much earlier, we wouldn't need GE Food. Jesus. There is no food that is not GE food vash. If it is being farmed for human consumption, it has been carefully bred to maximize desirable traits and minimize undesirable ones. But the idea we need GE food because of climate change is ridiculous. That's like saying if we had fought climate change earlier people wouldn't need to eat nutritious food as much. but it certainly isn't a deal breaker considering the piss poor policy of the opposing parties. What are the policies of the other parties Vash? As per usual you've got nothing but a bunch of green left epitaphs. |
I'm inclined to disagree having 'ordinary people' in parliament if they are ordinary like Pauline Hanson. Still, I would prefer a range of ordinary peoples rather than predominantly lawyers and banksters turned career politics. |
Have a read of what the Simplot guys for example have to say on this matter Most interesting Jim nice one, will look into their releases when I get more time. I haven't done much work with agribusiness outside sugar and banking loans so there's a whole lot of opinions vs facts to to get through, especially on something as complex/hot as GM. My gut reaction to GM is that artificial selection has bred some outrageous genetic structures and expressions as is so more controlled stuff should be fine, but I realise there are likely real problems with environmental concerns that don't get to the fore of the discussion a lot (thanks to hippies in greens & trolls elsewhere). Yeah definitely agree on the nuclear too we're pretty suited for it here - however not that the the major parties are big fans of it either (afaik?) so the energy crisis may loom either way. On the plus side solar is going places, and fast |
You can be damn sure there will be less if we implement policies that make it so they can't own/profit off their own research though. A good point, I would I think instead prefer forward-thinking legislation around patents for genes and genomes as ip, particularly around things with more intelligence than crops. Clean meat and lab grown tissues - yes, but I'd be pretty horrified to see that a company owned rights to part of my genome tbqh, or are creating wierd new s*** with their tech |
Gattaca II: You'll Never Guess What Crazy Genes We Found In This Disabled Astronaut
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I can forgive their Nuclear policy, If it was 15+ years ago things might be different. These days I would much prefer a heavier reliance on Wind/Solar/Storage solutions.
AFAIK Wind/Geothermal is already much cheaper than Nuclear and Solar (PV) is getting close ([if it hasn't overtaken yet](https://www.sciencealert.com/solar-power-is-now-the-cheapest-energy-in-the-world)) Thermal Solar is still pretty expensive, but I think that in time that will be cheaper than Nuclear too. Plus, while we do have a lot of empty space to safely store it, waste is definitely a problem not worth ignoring with Nuclear. The biggest failing of wind is storage. With the possibility of Mega-Batteries and maybe a few more dams (if they can get environmental approval) we should be able to meet our energy needs without going down the nuclear path. That said, LNP wanted to build a new Coal station in North QLD, which is pants on head retarded. |
Storage of collected energy has been the main issue for a long time. It's being sorted with battery technologies.
Nuclear medicine saves lives. Hanson is in politics because some people support some of her views, and because some people oppose those who oppose some of her views. Even hating on those is pretty stupid. We should have done more (public funding of course) to help those who struggle with our changing culture to integrate into our new society. Same with Trump. It's not to dislike the leader of the party. Personal distaste is for idiots. Media gives special attention to the strange things at each end of the political spectrum. Like an inverted bell curve. Where we get our news from is biased either way. We need to take that into account when reading it... depending where it's from, and get news from each end of the spectrum to make a more reasonable judgement. It's the ones who subscribe to a host of news feeds from one end of the political spectrum, and avoid information from the opposite end, that are a concern. They are unfortunately lost. They also fit a profile (condition or personality disorder) that is shared with bible thumpers... interestingly, over their life they may switch completely (zealot for the opposite) in their views several times. |
What an absurd thing to say :/ Of course a personal can very much dislike a person who is a leader. I can even like their policies and very much dislike the person. Then there are those people are clearly deceitful, I can certainly dislike such people. Those who say one thing, get their support and then do another. |
Like an inverted bell curve.known as a bathtub curve. Very handy for other things, most notably faults within a set lifetime of a product, such as a car. |
Meanwhile, in NSW:
.. On speaking over 3 new terrorists 'classifications'
Holy crap that is broad. That second category can essentially be applied to anyone who disagrees with any current government policies. If you protest against the governments treatment of people on Manus Island ... and the government gets the s**** with you, oh hey you are an 'underlying terrorists' and now can be detained in NSW prison indefinitely. Sure, it's unlikely, however the fact is it is now possible. It's these little steps, these small erosion of freedom, this legislation creep, that slowly and insidiously adds up to a tyrannical government. At some point people have to stand up and say, no f*** this. This is going no further. https://www.sydneycriminallawyers.com.au/blog/prison-sentences-can-now-be-extended-for-possible-future-crimes/ So the NSW government can now detain a person not for doing a crime, but because maybe they will. Do you think you should be punished for something you might, or might not do? |
Interesting post Toll. I read the Bill and the key section of concern is sub-section 34(1) which allows the Supreme Court to continue detention of a terrorism offender on the basis that the "Court is satisfied to a high degree of probability that the offender poses an unacceptable risk of committing a serious offence terrorism offence if not kept in detention under the order."
Obviously the Bill is large and contains many other provisions (many of which are around continuing supervision), but as with the Commonwealth anti-terror laws generally I don't like these type of "future crime" laws. Court supervision is the key circuit breaker to ensure the govt is not abusing these powers. The section I just quoted has an extremely high threshold to be proved and courts appreciate the liberties of the individual and the concept of time served. These type of provisions already apply to sex and serious violent offenders.... sometimes the risk to society of a pathological monster is not worth the risk of releasing them. |
Jesus christ Toll.
Orwellian as f***. Though its been happening for awhile. Late stage Capitalism in effect my friends. People are just too apathetic to fight for their rights now, and tend to vote against their own interests. https://i.imgur.com/ho50EZf.png |
Are you opposed to the violent and sexual offenders extended detention laws Vash?
If we know a certain terrorist who has killed others for example has expressed their intention to kill again upon release, should the state have the power to.imprison that person indefinitely? |
Did you read toll's post, Infi?
The laws enable authorities to further penalise inmates for crimes they haven’t committed or even planned, but rather, for crimes the attorney general feels they may commit in the future. This allows the state to imprison someone indefinitely regardless if they have shown the intention to commit further crimes. It's dangerous legislation since it will allow the state to keep political opponents jailed indefinitely for minor crimes. This country is going further to the s****** as time goes on. |
It's dangerous legislation since it will allow the state to keep political opponents jailed indefinitely for minor crimes. Well someone didn't read tolls post. It absolutely doesn't allow that. These are inmates serving time for a range of serious crimes that are said to have been carried out in a terrorist context, such as advancing a political, religious or ideological cause, or coercing the government. |
Did you read toll's post, Infi? I just quoted the operative provision from the Bill instead of referring to a newsletter. The operative provision to me sets a very high threshold for an order. So can you please stop posting distracting crap? |
Except that terrorism is an extremely broad term and can be applied to many a political opponent, not just Islamist extremists.
Example; PP pointing out that punching a Nazi is terrorism. And he's studying law. Interesting. |
Example; PP pointing out that punching a Nazi is terrorism. And he's studying law. Interesting. hahahaha. F*** you're entertaining. Glad to see you finally came around. |
We can argue over semantics but we should be all extremely concerned about this kind of legislation, dont you think?
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If you're capable of accurately characterizing the legislation, then and only then is it possible to have a meaningful discussion about it Vash.
For example similar legislation now applies to Julian Knight. I have never heard you claim the country is flying down the s****** in relation to that legislation. Not once. Now I could go down your road, and assume your *deafening silence* on the Julian Knight legislation signals your total and enthusiastic support of the legislation. But I'll assume you just don't know much about this topic. Here is how we can reach agreement. Re-read this post carefully. Interesting post Toll. I read the Bill and the key section of concern is sub-section 34(1) which allows the Supreme Court to continue detention of a terrorism offender on the basis that the "Court is satisfied to a high degree of probability that the offender poses an unacceptable risk of committing a serious offence terrorism offence if not kept in detention under the order." Pick out the parts I'm likely to draw your attention to. |
Indefinite imprisonment is a-ok with right wing authoritarians Vash, it's just how they see the world. Migrants, gays, terrorists, progressive political advocates, criminals, these are all threats to 'social order' or 'way of life'. Prison is not meant to reform or rehabilitate in their eyes, it's the 'next best' form of punishment we have before the death sentence.
I do think there are criminals who need to be simply removed from society in the domestic sense, but no matter how bad the worst offender is after two life sentences they won't be much threat as an 85y/o. I'm in favour of like, an international research effort on an island where everyone sends their worst sociopaths to be studied/controlled by experts. A prison/island/country of sorts. I think I'm on to something. But with current trends in the global political climate and prison system, recidivism and jail-as-punishment seem to go hand in hand |
Oh look phooks can't read and doesn't understand.
Again. He has managed to conflate "the new law doesn't authorize indefinite detention for people convicted of minor crimes" with "indefinite detention is a-ok". Oh and the notorious RWA's make a comeback. So deadlyf. Is this an example of university education facilitating information processing? Looks a little like a counter example. Maybe phooks should work in a fish and chip shop for a few months. |
Pp I wasn't talking about minor crimes?
I also encourage you to look up the definition of intelligence and maybe revisit your last few posts on it |
Nobody was talking about indefinite detention being a-ok. Not a single person came close to even implying it.
I'm comfortable with my understanding of intelligence and the amount you possess. |
And I do recall you said me calling you an RWA didn't get under your skin but here we are.
Would you prefer I used more 'politically correct' words to describe your views expressed throughout this thread? Perhaps I can instead use the terms ethnocentric, socially conservative, nationalistic and politically right wing? |
Nobody was talking about indefinite detention being a-ok. Yeah we're in the political thread and it's a topic of discussion, right wingers often bring up detentions that are extended to lengths required for people to die in prison. |
Oh so you were directing that post at me specifically?
So here is the thing. I did say the law doesn't authorize indefinite detention for minor crimes. So I guess by implication you must have been talking about minor crimes. That or mis-characterizing what I said, but you *sarcasm tags for trog* wouldn't do that would you? */sarcasm tags for trog* Let me rephrase phooks. Phooks is triggered and spouting nonsensical s*** again everyone. There is a solid chance he has been drinking. yeah we're in the political thread and it's a topic of discussion, right wingers often bring up detentions that are extended to lengths required for people to die in prison. We'll I guess the sarcasm tags were justified then. |
this is a bill for indefinite detention of convicted terrorists who have demonstrated a high likelihood of further offence i.e. their stated intention to harm others, lack of remorse etc. read the bill, it may apply to one person a year (or less) the requirements are so onerous.
Are you opposed to the violent and sexual offenders extended detention laws Vash? |
The evidence from empirical studies of deterrence suggests thathttps://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/publicati |
PP, Terrorism falls under an indictable offence right?
And the third class is the convicted terrorism activity offender: an inmate who has committed an indictable offence, who used to be a member of a terrorist organisation, has made statements advocating terrorist acts, or is associated with someone involved in terrorism. These can be “people whose cousin, brother or sister, somebody in their sporting club, a fellow prisoner, or their close associate is involved in a terrorism activity,” Mr Shoebridge explained. “It’s a very wide net. But, the government has promised to use it wisely,” he told Sydney Criminal Lawyers. However, “history proves that those promises are too often broken by future governments, which is why we oppose the law.” You state that someone can be a terrorist by simply punching a Nazi, which i see (and probably most would) as a minor crime. So if the state deems someone a terrorist, what is stopping them from being jailed indefinitely, considering a minor crime is deemed serious simply because terrorism is an umbrella term for a political activist using any level of violence versus another political activist? Are we concerned yet or it's like, yeah its all good, we can trust the Government to use these wide reaching laws only on the most violent criminals. |
I imagine this law is in no way intended to be a deterrent. This is for protection of society from a pathological criminal.
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You excel at dehumanising certain groups of people infi |
what is stopping them from being jailed indefinitely, considering a minor crime is deemed serious simply because terrorism is an umbrella term for a political activist using any level of violence versus another political activist? A judge reviewing the seriousness of the violence committed and likelihood the accused will do it again? Like it says in the legislation. Seeing as you are demonstrating you can't accurately characterize the legislation, meaningful discussion is becoming less likely. Lets shift angles. do you think the general population needs a punitive deterrent to prevent them generally behaving like julian knight? |
You excel at dehumanising certain groups of people infi i just did the exact opposite of what you accused - only a human can be a pathological criminal. I described unremorseful terrorists as humans, broken humans that in certain circumstances are deserving of indefinite detention to protect the community. but hey if you want them out near your family, let's tee it up. |
do you think the general population needs a punitive deterrent to prevent them generally behaving like julian knight? Of course, and we already have such a deterrent. But these laws don’t only apply to convicted terrorists. They apply to an offender whose crime is classed as occurring in a “terrorism context.” They can even apply to inmates who authorities claim has associated with another who’s advocated support for terrorist acts, whether they allegedly associated behind prison walls or otherwise. This is the part that concerns me most. I'm all for keeping mass murderers locked up. It's when the laws are too broad and we end up with a situation like the states where someone gets life in prison for crimes as minor as possession of a gram of weed. This may not happen but when so many laws are being passed and few are being retracted, how much broader will these laws become in the next few decades? |
Just so we are on the same page. you are saying the general public, requires the threat of significant prison time, to stop them killing people at random on a busy street? It's when the laws are too broad and we end up with a situation like the states where someone gets life in prison for crimes as minor as possession of a gram of weed. How in the name of all that's holy did you arrive at the conclusion someone convicted of possession of a gram of weed could be detained indefinitely under these laws? |
Im not saying that at all. There is a sufficient deterrent for people who may want to commit such crimes. But even with the threat of a lifetime of imprisonment or even death, doesn't stop everyone with such tendencies.
How in the name of all that's holy did you arrive at the conclusion someone convicted of possession of a gram of weed could be detained indefinitely under these laws? Its an example doofus. You're being too literal again. |
Im not saying that at all. ahem do you think the general population needs a punitive deterrent to prevent them generally behaving like julian knight? Of course, and we already have such a deterrent. Seems like its kind of exactly what you're saying. Its an example doofus. You're being too literal again. an example of what? It's not an example of behaviour captured by the legislation so it actually undermines your argument that the legislation is too broad. You're basically saying look this legislation is super broad look at all the behaviour it doesn't capture. |
I imagine you are mostly correct in that assumption. Unfortunately, over time and the inclusion of other laws that slowly give the government more and more power, the potential for misuse increases. It paves the way for a potential tyrannical government to take hold. It's not like government officials have abused laws to in the past.. |
So just putting aside your general govt paranoia for a second consider the actual text of this law and tell us how it could be abused?
I could point to specific weaknesses in the VLAD laws for example. Like giving the attorney General the power to declare lawless organisations. I do not see the same weakness in these laws which require an order from a judge. |
I do not see the same weakness in these laws which require an order from a judge.Then wouldn't a potential weakness be a corrupt or overly zealous judge? |
The separation of powers assumes the judicial arm is not corrupt or inept. If that is indeed the case then the constitutional democracy has bigger problems.
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Same-sex marriage passed. Kind of nice to have a not terrible thing happen.
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Your face happens everyday fpot.
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Yeah its great, now we can stop talking about it homophobe |
the good outcome is that, at least now that they're all registered and bar-coded, there's enough time to ready the gas chambers until the population elects another Hitler.
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Nice to see Abbott respect the will of his electorate... and run away from the vote like the coward he is.
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it would have been nice to see that piece of s*** tony abbott sitting on his own on the no side of the final vote with bob katter
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it would have been nice to see that piece of s*** tony abbott sitting on his own on the no side of the final vote with bob katterGive it time. Hate filled scum like Abbott always end up on their own. In other non-terrible news, Nicholls has conceded defeat and the slightly less awful Labor have formed government. |
Same s*** different day.
Milo was awesome last night. He has tapped into something strong. Some guy in the Q and A line came up to the mic and paid Milo the following compliment: "You are so handsome I would let you impregnate my gf." And the crowd screamed out "CUCK!" It was f*****g hilarious - poor guy was trying a little too hard to impress. Lots of laughs. |
Milo is a complete degenerate and what he has tapped into is an ability to appeal to degenerates just like him so congrats for that I guess?
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Ah Infi. Says alot about somebody who admires a professional troll.
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It is important to be aware of threats of academia driven political correctness and Islamism. Milo thankfully is here to remind us of the privilege of living in Western civilization. West is best!
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It is important to be aware of threats of academia driven political correctness and Islamism. Milo thankfully is here to remind us of the privilege of living in Western civilization. West is best!The weird sing-song, mantra like tone your posts take when talking about your heroes used to be kind of disturbing when I actually thought Trump's agenda had a chance of succeeding. Now that he (and others) are circling the drain it's not quite so bad because at least we'll get to point and laugh at you and your ilk while the damage he caused and that you allowed is being repaired. Get ready for the bin mate, it's the only place you're going. |
Hmm a double uni dropout is here to educate us on the threats of political correctness & Islamism. Alright Infi.
I dont think trolling everyone is reminding anyone of the privilege of living in Western civilization. |
Now that he (and others) are circling the drain it's not quite so bad because at least we'll get to point and laugh at you and your ilk while the damage he caused and that you allowed is being repaired. Naw bless your little heart. Someone still thinks trump won't serve his term. That is *adorable* |
yesssss. labor government for queensland! hardly any ON or LNP clowns.
and the sooner everyone stops talking about Milo the sooner he will go away. |
and the sooner everyone stops talking about Milo the sooner he will go away. The greens didn't get the memo/ wouldn't be able to process the memo. |
this thread deserves it's putrid fate of being nuked
trog should do the honours post haste |
Yeah i dont get the hysteria over him. He's just a troll, why get offended & protest his views? Let him express them and eventually he'll fade away.
Though, i wouldn't mind seeing him debate someone actually capable of debate. He seems to just pick on some mainstream feminists or some randoms, and insult from afar someone who might put up a good fight (Waleed?) |
Yeah i dont get the hysteria over him. He's just a troll, why get offended & protest his views? Let him express them and eventually he'll fade away. That darling of the left Waleed Aly declined to have him on his show or debate him, Milo will debate anyone who cares to show up. |
That's because, much like Cox/Roberts, he knows it doesn't matter if he 'wins' the debate or how much his thin bulls*** gets smashed to pieces. His followers don't care about facts or truth. All they care about is that there is someone out there in public saying the same dumb things they once had to hold secret.
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Yeah Waleed doesn't win debates often from what I've seen.
He struggles to go toe to toe with steve price. To amplify that, I've only seen him come close to debating someone once. It was Chris Hitchens on Q and A and Hitchens kicked his head in. Which is not to say Milo is the intellectual equivalent of Hitchens. |
Well when the debate turns to religion its not hard to kick their ass. I despise religion.
But i dont mind Waleed for most of his non religious views. |
His views on the middle east are guided by his religious views.
Hitchens was a prophet He was pretty spiffy. |
Trog beat me to it, didn't realise until I posted.
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there will never be another Hitchens
the problem with you mob are, is that you can't silence one of your own and not live to regret it |
Sam Harris is not doing a bad job. If you're into complaining about Islam & academic political correctness, listen to (and donate to) his podcast. This is who Leyonhjelm should be inviting to the Fenced House if he wants to have a conversation about free speech that is worth having.
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This is who Leyonhjelm should be inviting to the Fenced House if he wants to have a conversation about free speech that is worth having Agreed. This exchange between Harris & Chomsky is interesting https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of- |
Yeah interesting to the extent it completely discredits Chomsky.
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The consensus seems to be Harris got rekt but i suppose it depends what circles you frequent.
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So did you read that?
Chomsky continues to insist that bombing a suspected chemical weapons factory (and continues to assert, with *no evidence what so ever*, that is was a revenge attack for an embassy bombing) is morally equivalent to 9/11. Harris got rekt for pointing out that is pants on head insane. yeah ok. You go find me to people who make this consensus, and I'll show you a conga line of dribbling retards. |
https://www.salon.com/2015/05/07/scoring_the_noam_ And no evidence that the factory was a chemical weapons factory. Much like the Iraq invasion WMD 'evidence' Do we continue to listen to the U.S Government's bulls*** on it's foreign targets? |
Yeah so here is the thing about linking to salon. Its a conga line of dribbling retards. For example, salon published and then tried to unpublished an article advocating (not apologizing for) pedophilia, so they could go on the offensive about Milo.
And no evidence that the factory was a chemical weapons factory. I think by no evidence you mean soil tests indicating they were making VX gas. Anyway dude. You just keep thinking chomsky says anything worth listening to. Right now he is trying to say that NK is all the wait for it. Wait for it All the US's fault. He is an anti-American ass hat and fawning coverage in salon is ironclad proof. |
did some idiot click on the Nuke button?
i saw on the new's that North Korea be testing the boom booms |
Agreed.yeh good read! I'd never heard of it before. It's kind of funny seeing what is basically an annoying forum discussion that could easily appear here but just written in the high prose of serious academics that know they'll be crucified more if they make a grammatical faux pas than if they accidentally concede that bombing someone was the right/wrong thing to do. Communicating with people is hard. I am really enjoying the Sam Harris podcasts except when he talks about a) his foreign policy (which as far as I can tell is, invade everything for their own good, so I suspect I agree more with Chomsky based solely on that exchange) and b) free will, on which I find his views totally bizarre. His conversations with others are really interesting. He has such a boring voice though it's often hard to follow. This is the first podcast I've really ever listened to seriously though so maybe I just need more practice at podcast-listening. |
a) his foreign policy (which as far as I can tell is, invade everything for their own good, so I suspect I agree more with Chomsky based solely on that exchange) You'll be pleased to know that Sam Harris has never said (including in that exchange) anything even approaching that sentiment and was/is vocally against the 2003 Iraq war. That exchange is solely about the ethics of accidentally killing people in a military context versus intentionally trying to kill as many innocent people as possible (which apparently are suddenly confusing). At no point does Harris advocate invading nations. and frankly, if you're misreading him (Harris) that badly I question your motives. *edit* I don't expect a response, but like fpot you read these posts. The fact that you state Harris advocates 'invade people for their own good' demonstrates why Milo and not Harris should be invited to parliament.. even you. supposed even handed trog is simply incapable accurately capturing sentiment that isn't radical left. If this craven level of discourse is acceptable expect more Milo and less Harris. Infi, seeing as trog likes to talk to people he thinks live in intellectual bubbles that are beneath him (which in and of itself is an appallingly elitist concession) why don't you copy and paste this and see if you get an intelligent response. I f*****g doubt it. You should be f*****g ashamed of yourself. */edit* |
I agree with you completely that we cannot have a rational discussion of these matters, and that it is too tedious to pretend otherwise. And I agree that I am litigating all points (all real, as far as we have so far determined) in a “plodding and accusatory way.” That is, of course, a necessity in responding to quite serious published accusations that are all demonstrably false, and as I have reviewed, false in a most interesting way: namely, you issue lectures condemning others for ignoring “basic questions” that they have discussed for years, in my case decades, whereas you have refused to address them and apparently do not even allow yourself to understand them. That’s impressive. Hahaha f*** what a smackdown. Harris is a psycho |
oh phooks.
just google the incident they are talking about. Your attempts to get under my skin are vulgar. I guess a sign of your educated idiocy. While we are on the topic of shame. You really are a mental health professional right? It is shocking the education system has failed you so badly. |
just google the incident they are talking about. Wasn't really talking directly to the bombing - more Harris' understandings and justifications towards intercultural relations |
It really is fascinating to me that a psychologically trained person would be petty and vindictive.
Maybe you missed your calling spitting on fish and chips. Wasn't really talking directly to the bombing - more Wasn't really talking directly to the bombing - more Harris' understandings and justifications towards intercultural relations Oh so talking about random unrelated s*** again (point out the intercultural relations bit in the s*** you quoted). pauline hanson is MUCH more intelligent than you. edit I think Ill go a bit harder on that actually. So in a conversation where the topic is the ethics of trying to kill as many innocent people as possible vs responding to a credible report of a terrorist chemical weapons factory with violence, your concern is Wasn't really talking directly to the bombing - more Harris' understandings and justifications towards intercultural relations (ie Harris is not culturally sensitive enough, and on this basis chomsky has a point?) because dude I want my tax dollars back if that is what you are saying. Education was utterly wasted on you. PS you're a failure of a human being. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceuti I'll just leave this here. These justifications for the bombing were disputed by the owners of the plant, the Sudanese government, and other governments. American officials later acknowledged "that the evidence that prompted President Clinton to order the missile strike on the Shifa plant was not as solid as first portrayed. Indeed, officials later said that there was no proof that the plant had been manufacturing or storing nerve gas, as initially suspected by the Americans, or had been linked to Osama bin Laden, who was a resident of Khartoum in the 1980s."[3] Sounds familiar... |
i know nothing about this exchange so will take time to learn about another leftist failure. thanks!
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Still doing american identity politics up in here, pretty good. Who abstained from the same-sex marriage vote? Barnaby Joyce (Nationals) Tony Abbott (Liberals) Andrew Hastie (Liberals) Michael Sukkar (Liberals) Kevin Andrews (Liberals) Scott Morrison (Liberals) George Christensen (LNP) Rick Wilson (Liberals) Stuart Robert (Liberals) Bert van Manen (Liberals) |
Would you have rather they voted no? They exercised their right to vote one of three ways and are on the record. What's so cowardly about it? They showed up.
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Another conservative failure.
Tones failing over and over is delicious. |
Tone especially is a f*****g coward, he brought up and pushed for the plebiscite then didn't even bother to show up for the vote.
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The Harris Chomsky exchange is instructive for two reasons:
- Chomsky's writing is the literary equivalent of b****y resting face; - Chomsky cannot neutralise the "perfect weapon" argument against collateral damage - evil doers would use a perfect weapon to maximise their civilian casualties (and in fact casualties are more often than not the primary objective), vs US as an international actor would minimise their casualties in order to destroy a target. Civilian casualties are not a US objective, they are collateral. A known element of civilian casualties is factored intro achieve a strategic objective - that has always been an element of geopolitics. I think Chomsky is on better ground arguing why America ever got involved in these areas in the first place. Reading The Silk Road, America got its claws into the Middle East at the dawn of the oil era and has been meddling ever since, facilitating regime change after regime change. This has bred the distrust of Americans but still in no way can excuse terrorist acts. tbh Chomsky's writing is angry and Harris was very patient with him to tease out any sort of cogent response. |
Is the Iraq war or the attack on that plant collateral damage or terrorism? Considering the evidence and intention on attacking these regions was false.
The 100s of thousands that have died. These wars led to the birth of ISIS which is causing world wide havoc. Yet the image of the U.S is barely scathed. Only a few like Chomsky seem to really understand what's going on. The U.S isn't stupid. They know well why they are spending so many resources on invading & attacking certain places. And later on, oopsy, there was no evidence to justify that! Wake up sheeple. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_pharmaceuti So the thing about that article Vash is no where. Not once. does it suggest Clinton acted with no evidence so Chomsky is starting out factually wrong. But the fact that the intelligence may have been wrong is actually assumed by Harris. The question, is whether acting on intelligence which turns out to be wrong or less than proof is the same as intentionally killing as many innocent people as possible. Chomsky's characterization of the strike is absolutely ludicrous and his claim there is no moral difference between intentionally killing people and accidentally killing people (including when it is appreciated there will be some level of accidental death) is bats*** insane. There is not a legal system on earth that reflects Chomsky's ethical claim. It is close to being not even wrong. Considering the evidence and intention on attacking these regions was false. What does this even mean? The intention was false? |
They state the intention was to be rid of chemical weapons. This likely wasn't their intention at all.
Chomsky is probably right it was a revenge attack that will have lasting impacts on the health of the population. The intention to invade iraq due to WMDs. Likely the intention is something else entirely. |
You know full well the definition of terrorism. if the evidence is false that is a mistake of fact, not a mistake of intention. I think there is a big question mark over whether the evidence was manufactured to fit the intended outcome. We will never know. We do know Iraq was a dictatorship, infringe civil rights and kill civilians regularly.
This is a multiple layered issue given the US got itself into the region in the first place on the premise of oil security, then it seems to just so it could keep pulling the strings. But what do you do to your dog when it gets its first taste of blood? Unfortunately you have to put it down. Saddam and Iraq is this perfect example. Left unchecked Saddam could have developed into a multitude of global problems: another Kuwait, another Iran/Iraq war, Al Quada training ground, civil rights abuses at home. The sanctions alone caused by an unflinching Saddam itself was a preview to what would happen next. And then to think Obama cuts a deal with Iran next door over its nuclear program. USA created a lot of th ese problems indirectly through generations of meddling but when a country shows an actual intent to harm others they need to be neutralised. I have to laugh at Chomsky's attempts to equate the US to Al Quaeda and the Taliban at a moral level. that one won't pass the pub test mate. Milo will fill more speaking halls than Harris because Milo is more entertaining I suspect, although that in turn generates more offense. Harris would be too polite to be an entertinaer. |
This likely wasn't their intention at all. Based on what? do you have any idea how stupid the idea that Clinton acted out of personal animus toward Bin Laden is? |
Bin Laden turned on the U.S.
The U.S uses all kinds of cute terms to justify an attack without seeming morally reprehensible, it saves their image. And no doubt bombing a vital pharmaceutical factory is morally reprehensible. But lets say theres chemical weapons there to make it seem not so bad. So at this stage i think Chomsky is dead on with the moral equivalence thing. If you lived as a Sudanese, Iraqi, or the relatives of the many who have been killed by the U.S, potentially leading to radicalization, im sure you'd have a different opinion. We're living in the comfort of the West and fed constantly on how awesome the U.S is. Perspective is important. |
Dude you are ascribing to Bill Clinton a caricature that would be stretch to believe of Trump.
Bin Laden turned on the US (years before the administration) and Clinton was so personally affronted by this he blew up a pharma factory in northern Africa to get him back? So at this stage i think Chomsky is dead on with the moral equivalence thing. Accidentally killing people is as bad as intentionally killing them. Perspective is important. Here is some perspective. If Chomsky is correct, the annual road toll is exactly as evil (possibly more so) as the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge. |
my god sco mo is a c***.
he surely is one of the most horrible people around. |
If I recall he's also one of the cowards who abstained from the ssm vote |
Here is some perspective. If Chomsky is correct, the annual road toll is exactly as evil (possibly more so) as the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge. This is a laughable attempt at equivalence. Feel free to email Chomsky your thoughts. You're way out of your league on understanding the issue. As am i. But i can certainly see where he's coming from, and you're just being argumentative so if you really want to learn instead of argue, hit up the man himself. |
If moral intent is not relevant, just awareness of a reasonably foreseeable outcome, then we are all culpable monsters of the road tragedy.
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This is a laughable attempt at equivalence Yeah I know, it is Chomsky's attempt at equivalence. I see no need to email someone who has demonstrated themselves (for decades) to be an anti-american buffoon. The intention behind an action is absolutely central to judging the ethical worth of the action. If you're out of your depth intellectually on that concept god help you is all I have to say. |
The intention behind an action is absolutely central to judging the ethical worth of the action. Funnily enough the intention behind many a terrorist or country (Nazi Germany?) is to make the world a better place for their vision of the world. That probably involves killing Americans or Jews. The U.S is not far different than a terrorist organisation in that regard. It's intention is irrelevant, when the result is mass murder. *especially* when that action had no evidence justifying it, you then need to question the intention. |
The US (under Bill Clinton mind) is like Nazi Germany.
Yeah OK. *especially* when that action had no evidence justifying it, you then need to question the intention. we've been over this. At length. There was evidence justifying it. The evidence *may* have been mistaken, but I note nobody contradicts a precursor of VX being found there. The question turns on whether they may have had a legitimately peaceful purpose for it. And even if there wasn't how would blowing up a factory in northern Africa hurt Bin Laden in any conceivable way? as a 'personally motivated revenge' attack it makes even less sense. (unless of course you're trying to paint Bill Clinton as unhinged unrepentant killer there is an intention you can explore vash). |
You need to be a special kind of idiot to suggest that the Clinton-era US is in any way as bad as Nazi Germany I dare say for *any* group/demographic of individuals, especially without specifying for who, which might if that were even arguably the case be such an extreme edge case people still won't take you seriously.
Oh no, the Clinton-era US was as bad as Nazi Germany for convicted and known pedophiles! |
Except noone suggested that, Raven.
Maybe so under Bush and presidents involved in the Vietnam war. Much like Nazi Germany, the U.S is enforcing its vision for the world, not far different to any major power in history. How that ends up for everyone in the long run remains to be seen. There's also the intention on refusing to battle climate change. Chomsky likens this to the Republican party being the most dangerous organisation in the history of the world, for the sheer damage on human life such a position would have. |
Except noone suggested that, Raven. Much like Nazi Germany, the U.S Chomsky likens this to the Republican party being the most dangerous organisation in the history of the world, That statement includes the nazi party. Just to touch base with reality. Which Party does Bill Clinton belong to again? and actually just to make Chomsky's idiocy jump a bit higher. The Poltical Party founded to end slavery (and not the party founded to kill all the jews) is the most dangerous organization in the history of the world. Chomsky Is A F*****g Retard. |
Think about it PP. How much loss of human life would not acting on climate change cause? Far more deaths than the Nazi death camps thats for sure.
And the Republican party at it's time of foundation is nothing like the one today, you should know that. |
How much loss of human life would not acting on climate change cause? Far more deaths than the Nazi death camps thats for sure. The road toll kills far more people than ever died in the nazi death camps. By continuing to use a vehicle you are more evil than Hitler vash. Here is a question, does the Republican party today advocate for slavery? |
One person using a vehicle cannot kill millions, so again, thats a dumb equivalence.
The republican party doing good does not excuse it's policy that would kill numerous millions. Nazis pushed for animal conservation. So their all good then? |
Climate change is the aggregate effect of individuals acting Vash. It is exactly the same. In fact, by using electricity from the grid, you are just as evil as hitler Vash. Just as evil. every time you use a computer it is exactly the same as the holocaust.
F*** you're entertaining. he republican party doing good does not excuse it's policy that would kill numerous millions. Ending slavery. that's the good they did they ended slavery. You liken them to *the Nazis* because they don't subscribe to your views on climate change. I like how now we aren't even talking about Bill Clinton at all now. In an effort to show Chomsky isn't a flat out moron, you're talking about climate change. |
Why would we keep talking about Bill Clinton? We already addressed what he approved in Sudan. You can ignore the (lack of) evidence on that if you wish. I have since expanded to other examples.
And i never linked Clinton's actions to being as bad as the Nazis, you did by some stretch of the imagination. Most people dont act on climate change unless Government policy or markets are regulated to do so. Even those dirty communists in China are full steam ahead on battling it. Example, our carbon output once the carbon tax was repealed. You like looking at a very individual level on these issues to dance around the fact that a large political entity such as the Republican party would cause the death of millions by not following the rest of the world on regulating markets. |
And i never linked Clinton's actions to being as bad as the Nazis yeah you did. Right here. Funnily enough the intention behind many a terrorist or country (Nazi Germany?) is to make the world a better place for their vision of the world. That probably involves killing Americans or Jews. I have since expanded to other examples. No you have lost that discussion and are now trying to introduce a red herring, but I'll play along because this idiocy will be entertaining as always. Most people don't act on climate change unless Government policy or markets are regulated to do so. But they can. why are they absolved of their contribution? If the republican party is like the nazis for not addressing climate change, why aren't you when you don't. You like looking at a very individual level on these issues to dance around the fact that a large political entity such as the Republican party would cause the death of millions by not following the rest of the world on regulating markets. How? |
this is beyond dumb, it is like debating a faulty chat AI.
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sometimes I think about stopping. But I'm curious to see how deep the rabbit hole is.
don't forget, this is the level of person who says its ok to punch nazis. He also just happens to think bill clinton is as bad as the nazis. |
Funnily enough the intention behind many a terrorist or country (Nazi Germany?) is to make the world a better place for their vision of the world. That probably involves killing Americans or Jews. The U.S is not far different than a terrorist organisation in that regard. Where did i link Clinton in this statement, to Nazi Germany? You're a buffoon as always PP. You can keep hating on people intellectually superior to you or you can sit down, listen and learn. |
Except noone suggested that, Raven. Literally in the post directly above: The US (under Bill Clinton mind) is like Nazi Germany. The inability for people here to make comments that aren't demonstratably false with trivial effort is baffling at times. *Even despite* it was said in sarcastic response to an earlier comment. |
I was referring to Nazi Germany as also having a vision to making the world a better place, in their eyes. Not ours.
That post had nothing to do with Sudan incident specifically, except to point out that the U.S has committed acts of atrocity that are morally equivalent to what the Nazis did. |
Where did i link Clinton in this statement, to Nazi Germany? This how you did it Vash That post had nothing to do with Sudan incident specifically, except to point out that the U.S has committed acts of atrocity that are morally equivalent to what the Nazis did. Thats how. You link clinton to the the nazis by saying he did something morally equivalent to what the nazis did. You can keep hating on people intellectually superior to you or you can sit down, listen and learn. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha go find a nazi to punch. according to you there have been several nazi presidents of the US. |
teddy roosevelt had a shocking temper by all accounts. Just like Hitler.
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http://bostonreview.net/class-inequality/dani-rodr The term is used as a catchall for anything that smacks of deregulation, liberalization, privatization, or fiscal austerity. Today it is reviled routinely as a short-hand for the ideas and the practices that have produced growing economic insecurity and inequality, led to the loss of our political values and ideals, and even precipitated our current populist backlash. Does an increase in the minimum wage depress employment? Yes, if the labor market is really competitive and employers have no control over the wage they must pay to attract workers; but not necessarily otherwise. Does trade liberalization increase economic growth? Yes, if it increases the profitability of industries where the bulk of investment and innovation takes place; but not otherwise. Does more government spending increase employment? Yes, if there is slack in the economy and wages do not rise; but not otherwise. Does monopoly harm innovation? Yes and no, depending on a whole host of market circumstances Strangely, the professor deems the knowledge that he imparts to his advanced students to be inappropriate (or dangerous) for the general public. Why? But neoliberals are not wrong when they argue that our most cherished ideals are more likely to be attained when our economy is vibrant, strong, and growing. Where they are wrong is in believing that there is a unique and universal recipe for improving economic performance to which they have access. The fatal flaw of neoliberalism is that it does not even get the economics right. It must be rejected on its own terms for the simple reason that it is bad economics. |
And look
Abe Lincoln in the Gettysburg address refers to the birth of a nation and blood consecrating soil. Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, NAZISSSSSSSSSS ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS A NAZI 100 YEARS BEFORE THERE WERE NAZISSSS WAKE UP SHEEPLE. |
wow phooks that is special.
You managed to do exactly what the guy who wrote the article was warning about by cherry picking his article. But the looseness of the term neoliberalism also means that criticism of it often misses the mark. There is nothing wrong with markets, private entrepreneurship, or incentives—when deployed appropriately. Their creative use lies behind the most significant economic achievements of our time. As we heap scorn on neoliberalism, we risk throwing out some of neoliberalism’s useful ideas. Those education dollars hard at work. |
So pp you managed to once again find the one bit of info, in a long and nuanced article, that barely agrees with your unchangeable worldview, then followed that up with irrelevant personal attacks. Keep up that great discourse
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Milo was awesome last night. He has tapped into something strong. Some guy in the Q and A line came up to the mic and paid Milo the following compliment: "You are so handsome I would let you impregnate my gf." And the crowd screamed out "CUCK!" It was f*****g hilarious - poor guy was trying a little too hard to impress. Lots of laughs. people actually hit out with "cuck" in real life? I guess if there ever were a safe space to do so then that would have been it |
You do realise that allowing another man to have sex with your wife/gf is the literal definition of cuckold...
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I'm thinking how terrible it would be to be stuck in a social gathering with just one insufferable twat who uses the term cuck unironically, and then a vision flashed before my eyes of being in a room full of them. Tell me infi, did the Milo venue smell more of Lynx Africa or Old Spice?
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There was no real overpowering odour, it was mostly well air-conditioned, but it did get a little warm at the end.
Do you not think some guy trying to impress a celebrity (of any persuasion) by saying he would let the celebrity have sex with his wife/gf is not cringeworthy and deserving of ridicule? |
Milo the performance artist currently well monetising hot topic culture politics? Not sure which audience he was pandering to with his pro-hebephilia views, perhaps they were his own?
Think you're scratching the barrel if Milo's the best you can come up with to support your political ideology and foster valuable discourse, imo. Not to say the militant left's clowns are any better. Still amazes me people take any of these failed artist come political pundit types seriously. I like how we're on to moral relativism now, couldn't agree on anything else, surely this is the one! ;) |
Do you not think some guy trying to impress a celebrity (of any persuasion) by saying he would let the celebrity have sex with his wife/gf is not cringeworthy and deserving of ridicule?Depends. If it was said by someone with an ounce of self-confidence who is able to take the piss out of themselves while not looking completely foolish it could be made funny enough to elicit a gentle chuckle. A fresh from the basement brony saying it though? Yeah I can see how that would go down bad. |
i would imagine Milo kept his pedo views quiet this time round?
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Milo is just doing great things for freedom of speech by being a pedo, Spook.
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He re-explained the context (*as had been explained numerous times before) that he was not endorsing pedophilia but merely explaining the actual state of affairs that quite often teenage boys have their first homosexual experiences with adult men and that these can be positive reaffirming experiences that help them with the budding sexuality and the social stigma with coming out of the closet.
He stated that pedophilia is a crime. I guess the issue is that some of these situations should be treated with context when the minor is close to the age of consent and is a consensual participant, and that is exactly what judges do. Vash what makes you say Milo "being a pedo"? |
this is different/same to kids sexting and getting convictions?
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A promoter of pedo behavior probably suits better.
Though who knows what he does behind the scenes being of 4chan caliber. |
this is different/same to kids sexting and getting convictions? Very similar! How many examples of children being convicted of sexting can you show me? |
read the article, 92% receive a caution. the cops understand this is a tricky area of the law.
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You do realise that allowing another man to have sex with your wife/gf is the literal definition of cuckold... be that as it may, the specific term cuck has picked up enough of the stink of birtherism, pizzagate, and Soros conspiracy theories that it’s not worth redeeming |
has it really? check urban dictionary
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A promoter of pedo behavior probably suits better.He and Trump have many things in common. |
that hockey hack is lulz. Little rascals.
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So pp you managed to once again find the one bit of info, in a long and nuanced article, that barely agrees with your unchangeable worldview, then followed that up with irrelevant personal attacks. Keep up that great discourse Just so we are on the same page, the guy who cherry picked an article to make it seem like neo-liberalism is a defunct ideology based on bad economics and sustained merely by a conspiracy of academic economists is criticizing me pointing to the open paragraphs in which the author of the article you cherry picked bemoans the lack of nuace in criticism on neo-liberalism as not being nuanced enough. Yeah ok, those education dollars hard at work. you're a jackass. |
I'm thinking how terrible it would be to be stuck in a social gathering with just one insufferable twat who uses the term cuck unironically, and then a vision flashed before my eyes of being in a room full of them. Tell me infi, did the Milo venue smell more of Lynx Africa or Old Spice? Imagining it would have been a sea of tarocash. |
some tarocash wear is quite smart!
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some tarocash wear is quite smart!yeah, if this is 2008 |
Seriously need to kill off political donations, or at least limit the amount an individual, or business entity can donate. Democracy is next to non existent while its allowed.
Wonder how many other of our politicans are bought out by foreigners? Another reason to vote the Greens. |